Last topic today-I promise!

Amazing_Grace · Oct 12, 2001

I've only become a member of this forum for the last couple of days, so I haven't had a chance to read all of the threads yet, but found one that interested me.

I was about free-will and predestination. If I got the gist of the thread, Baptists believe in predestination.

If this is so, my first question is; what separates Baptists from Calvinists in terms of beliefs?

My second question is this; if God predestines EVERYTHING, and knows the future, then wouldn't it stand that He created some people who He KNEW would go to Hell? Why would He do that? Doesn't He want everyone up there in Heaven, and glorifying Him here on Earth? I can't see the logic behind this. I can't believe that God would create people to go to Hell.

Is is possible that there is a mix? That the big things are figured out but that there are some things He lets us decide? I believe that if we were to get off track, He would guide us. For instance, I know that it was figured out long ago that I was going to end up with the man who is my husband, after all, he brought me to Christ. That was very important in the scheme of things God has layed out. And I can see in things that have happened throughout my life that, well, some things happened to perfectly to be chance. But I can't believe that EVERYTHING is planned out by Him, I would like to think that everyone has the chance to go to Heaven. If they decide to reject it, that's their fault, but--I just don't know.

What would be the sense in praying and asking for God to be with certain people in times of illness and such if He already has everything planned out. Why ask Him for anything--if it's not part of His plan, it won't matter. Does this mean that when we pray for someone to be better, and they get better, it was just a coincidence that our prayers fell in line with what He had planned anyway?

I'll admit, I didn't read all 7 pages of the thread, but I didn't see this argument in the parts I looked at.

I am very confused!!! (Obvious?) Please explain!!!

tyndale1946 · Oct 12, 2001

It's not the question that he sent some to hell... We were all headed that way! He just redirected other to heaven by his love and mercy. The others were left just where they were... Brother Glen

ddavis · Oct 12, 2001

God sends nobody to hell they send themselves by not makeing Jesus the Lord of their lives. Romans 10:13 says For whosoever shall..... Everyone has a freewill and has a choice either to choose Christ or not. But that doesn't suprise God for he is all knowing.

Chris Temple · Oct 12, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Amazing_Grace:
If this is so, my first question is; what separates Baptists from Calvinists in terms of beliefs? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Historically, Baptists have been both Calvinists and Arminians. Most Baptists today are somewhat mixed, affirming (inconsistently) T and P. Biblical Baptists are Calvinists, however

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>My second question is this; if God predestines EVERYTHING, and knows the future, then wouldn't it stand that He created some people who He KNEW would go to Hell? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes He did.

I Peter 2:7 To you therefore who believe, he is precious, but for those who do not believe, "The very stone which the builders rejected has become the head of the corner,"
8 and "A stone that will make men stumble, a rock that will make them fall"; for they stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Why would He do that? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For the praise and glory of His name in redeeming some out of all who deserve hell.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Doesn't He want everyone up there in Heaven, and glorifying Him here on Earth? I can't see the logic behind this. I can't believe that God would create people to go to Hell. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks be to God, He doesn't answer to our logic.

Isaiah 55:9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

AG, I suggest you do some studying on the subject. May I suggest some serious reading of John Piper's writings, at
God's Passion for His Glory and The Doctrines of Grace (TULIP)

Dr. Bob · Oct 13, 2001

And might I add, Baptists should be good calvinists! (God is sovereign, man isn't, God selects hell-bound sinners for heaven, Christ dies for them and the Spirit regenerates them; they are saved forever)

Arminian theology (man ain't so bad, God chooses based on what not-so-bad man chooses first, free will and free to lose salvation if we sin too much - okay, that's probably a little cruder than THEY would put it, but you get the point) is the theology of the other bunch - pentecostal, charismatic, etc.

I am constantly amazed at the variety of Baptists on this BaptistBoard, and even more startled by some of the theology expressed!

(And would you believe, some even disagree with ME?)

Chris Temple · Oct 13, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Amazing_Grace:
Is is possible that there is a mix? That the big things are figured out but that there are some things He lets us decide? I believe that if we were to get off track, He would guide us. For instance, I know that it was figured out long ago that I was going to end up with the man who is my husband, after all, he brought me to Christ. That was very important in the scheme of things God has layed out. And I can see in things that have happened throughout my life that, well, some things happened to perfectly to be chance. But I can't believe that EVERYTHING is planned out by Him, I would like to think that everyone has the chance to go to Heaven. If they decide to reject it, that's their fault, but--I just don't know.

What would be the sense in praying and asking for God to be with certain people in times of illness and such if He already has everything planned out. Why ask Him for anything--if it's not part of His plan, it won't matter. Does this mean that when we pray for someone to be better, and they get better, it was just a coincidence that our prayers fell in line with what He had planned anyway?

I'll admit, I didn't read all 7 pages of the thread, but I didn't see this argument in the parts I looked at.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amazing:

You are committing the common error of confusing the biblical doctrine of God's sovereignty with Fatalism, which states that if God is sovereign and has ordained all things, why do anything at all?

The biblical doctrine of God's sovereignty is not fatalism, but rather God working his perfect divine will and plan of redemption via his perfect, unchanging Decretive Will and through his Permissive Will, or Providence . In Daniel 4, it says:

Daniel 4:34-37 (ESV)
At the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High, and praised and honored him who lives forever,
for his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
and his kingdom endures from generation to generation;
[35] all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,
and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, "What have you done?"
[36] At the same time my reason returned to me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my majesty and splendor returned to me. My counselors and my lords sought me, and I was established in my kingdom, and still more greatness was added to me. [37] Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, for all his works are right and his ways are just; and those who walk in pride he is able to humble.

God directs the paths of prince and pauper, so that His perfect will and plan is worked out. Yet people are moral agents who will and make their own choices.

The best analogy I can think fo is the inspiration of Scripture. "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righ teousness" 2 Tim. 3:16 (ESV) so as every written word is the word of God, yet the writers were not automatons who unattachedly wrote down dictation. they used their minds and personalities and choices as to what they would write.

So it is in all of life. God is suprememly in control, so that nothing happens which he ahs not willed to happen, yet man makes choices and personal decisions within the sovereignty of God.

As to praying, the question is often asked wrongly. We should not ask "If God controls all things, why should I pray?", but rather ask "IF God DOES NOT control all things, why should I pray?" There is no reason the Arminian should pray at all, for they do not believe that God will supercede the will of the creature. Only the Calvinist has a God who can change the hearts and actions and plans of man in order to answer the prayers of his children.

DocCas · Oct 13, 2001

No biblical Baptist is a Calvinist. John Calvin (real name Jean Cauvin) was a baby sprinkling heretic who (trained as a Roman Catholic Priest, and later as a lawyer), through his false "church" became virtual dictator of the independent city-state of Geneva. He usurped the reins of civil government and violated one of the most basic of the Baptist distinctives, separation of church and state. God ordained three distinct institutions, the family, civil government, and the church. To confuse them, or to try to make them one, is a heinous heresy!

Chris Temple · Oct 13, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:
No biblical Baptist is a Calvinist. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Miss your coffee this morning, Dr.C?

To affirm Calvinism is to affirm Reformed soteriology, not a blanket acceptance of all things Calvin did or believed. To call him a heretic is inaccurate. He denied neither Christ nor the true gospel.

Calvinism is, as Spurgeon said, an unfortunate nickname for the gospel.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again. - Spurgeon <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ October 13, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

Amazing_Grace · Oct 15, 2001

Thanks for all of your input, it did shed some light on some of the questions I had. Sometimes I tend to overthink things and get myself all confused, and then I try to answer my own questions and just come up with new ones, and by the time I'm done I more confused than I was in first place and don't know how I got there!

I've always believed in predestination to a point, I didn't think He worried about a lot of the small things. But now that I think about it, sometimes the things we think are small are very important to something bigger being accomplished. So I guess I do believe in predestination of everything.

Now I have another question. I think maybe I don't understand free will as well as I thought I did. Can free will go along with predestination?

I guess its just upsetting sometimes because I want everyone to know the love and joy of our God, and to think that ultimately there are going to many who don't saddens me deeply. Sometimes it's hard to face that....

Chris Temple · Oct 15, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Can free will go along with predestination?

I guess its just upsetting sometimes because I want everyone to know the love and joy of our God, and to think that ultimately there are going to many who don't saddens me deeply. Sometimes it's hard to face that....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The answer is yes and no. True free will does not go along with predestination, if in that freewill means a determiner of one's own fate. Free will (as it was) was lost in original sin. Every creature after that was born a slave to sin. Only by regeneration of the Holy Spirit is the will "freed" and enabled to believe in God in Christ. And only by God's predetermined plan and elective purpose in grace is any wretched sinner enabled to believe.

You are right in wanting all to know the love and joy of our God, and to be saddened to know that many will not ever come to Him. That is why we are called to preach the gospel to every creature, and why the election of God is unknown to us.

There was no greater predestinarian than the apostle Paul, yet what did he say just after affirming the truth God's election and predestination in Romans 8 and before expounding on God's elective purposes in Romans 9?

"I speak the truth in Christ—I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh" Rom 9:1-3

Paul knew it was impossible that all Israel would believe on Christ, yet his heart was so torn that he was willing to give up his own salvation for them, if it were possible!

Do we often have the same emotion toward the lost?

John Wells · Oct 15, 2001

Dr. Cassidy,

Granted John Calvin's personal life was wanting in many ways, but the doctrines he defined are, as Spurgeon said, the gospel. If you disagree, what points do you disagree with and what do you replace them with?

[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]

DocCas · Oct 15, 2001

John, Calvin had nothing to do with the so-called "5 Points of Calvinism" or "TULIP."

The 5 points were first enumerated as the Canons of the Synod of Dort. The National Synod of Dort was convened by the States-General, November 13, 1618 and lasted until May 9, 1619. The canons of Dort were endorsed by the Reformed Church of France and made binding upon the ministers on October 1, 1620. The so-called "5 Points" were called "Heads of Doctrine" and elucidate the biblical system of Soteriology, first positively, then negatively in the rejection of the Arminian errors. The canons of Dort never refer to the Remonstrants (Arminians) using words of condemnation or anathema, but simply of rejecting the errors of their false Soteriology ("rejectio errorum") and thus shows that true biblical Soteriology is much more charitable than what passes for much of "Calvinism" today, with its name-calling and labeling (libeling?) of those who disagree.

I am not a "Calvinist." I am not even a member of a "Reformed" church. My spiritual forebears never fell into apostacy and needed "reformation." My faith is "the faith once delivered unto the saints" as we read in Jude. My Soteriology is biblical, not man-made. It is 100% of God and none of man. I can believe the Biblical doctrines of grace without having to bow the ecclesiastical knee to any man or man-made system of theology.

Gina B · Oct 15, 2001

Just an observation.....seems like every time the issue is brought up the people in favor of "Calvinism" tend to bring more scripture into it....the opposite side attacks John Calvin or others who were important in teaching the doctrine instead of using any real back up.....
And another observation....just how many times and on how many issues can the argument "he was a baby sprinklin' heretic"
be used, exactly?

da Gina
Had to come back and add that they were just observation...don't 100 percent agree with either...just agree with 75 percent of one.

[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: Gina ]

Joey M · Oct 15, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I am not a "Calvinist." I am not even a member of a "Reformed" church. My spiritual forebears never fell into apostacy and needed "reformation." My faith is "the faith once delivered unto the saints" as we read in Jude. My Soteriology is biblical, not man-made. It is 100% of God and none of man. I can believe the Biblical doctrines of grace without having to bow the ecclesiastical knee to any man or man-made system of theology. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen and Amen.
God never predestined anyone to hell. It is not God's will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence.
Whosoever will let him come and take of the water of life freely.

Many many others verses could be added here. But some peoples minds are made up no matter what God's word says.

Chris Temple · Oct 15, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Many many others verses could be added here. But some peoples minds are made up no matter what God's word says.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Phew ... for a minute I thought you were talking 'bout us Calvinists!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> It is not God's will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentence.
Whosoever will let him come and take of the water of life freely. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But who is it who will come to repentance? And who is it who will come and take of the water?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> John 6:36 But I said unto you that ye also have seen Me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me, and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from Heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me.
39 And this is the Father’s will who hath sent Me, that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the Last Day.
40 And this is the will of Him that sent Me: that every one who seeth the Son and believeth in Him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the Last Day."
44 No man can come to Me unless the Father who hath sent Me draw him; and I will raise him up at the Last Day. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>God never predestined anyone to hell.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Rom 9:20 But nay, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, "Why hast thou made me thus?"
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor?
22 What if God, choosing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction;
23 and this that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, whom He had prepared before unto glory,
24 even us whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore who believe, He is precious; but unto those who are disobedient, "The stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,"
8 and, "A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense," even to those who stumble at the Word, being disobedient, unto which also they were appointed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

John Wells · Oct 15, 2001

Thank you and right on Brother Chris. Add to those:

Romans 8:28-30 (ESV)
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:4-5 (ESV)
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

Ephesians 1:9-11 (ESV)
making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Romans 11:5, 7 "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according TO THE ELECTION OF GRACE. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but THE ELECTION hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

That's why I praise God and say, "Why me, Lord?" Thank you Father God because there is no good in me, but because of your sovereign grace, you chose me. It is not I who chose you!”

[ October 15, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]

Joey M · Oct 16, 2001

So let me get this straight. God, made some of His creation so that they could go through this life without hope to be damned to an everlasting firey hell which He (God) made no way of escape for them. Not even through His Son, who died on the cross and shed His presious blood for <part> of the world. So what sin sent them to hell. It can't be that they rejected Christ because from your point of view they could have never accepted him if they had wanted to.
If there were no hell in the hereafter, maybe I could buy a view like this, but with hell a reality, God provided a means of escape. His Son.

Matt. 25:41 "41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."

Let me ask you, if some were predestined to heaven and some to hell why was hell not made for them. But was made for the devil and his angels. I'll answer that question for you, because it is not the will of God that any should perish. Why doesn't it say "prepared for those he didn't chose."?

Matt.10:32,33 "32Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."

Whosoever. Yea I know those who were not predestined will no confess Him. Then why tell this to them in the first place? If those that are predestined are going to confess Him anyway and the damned not, why put it in this context?

Matt 10:42 "42And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward."

Matt. 11:5,6 "... and the poor have the gospel preached to them. 6And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."

Mark 8:33-38 "Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 35For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it. 36For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? 37Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 38Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

John 12:46,47 " 46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."

Acts 10:43 "43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."

Acts 13:40,41 " 40Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets; 41Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you."

same verse in NAS "40 “Take heed therefore, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:

41 ‘Behold, you scoffers, and marvel, and perish;
For I am accomplishing a work in your days,
A work which you will never believe, though someone should describe it to you.’”

Now how can I beware or how can I take heed that this not come upon me if I have no choice in the matter?

Romans 9:31-33 ". 31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed."

James 4:6-10 "...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 7Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 9Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. 10Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up."

John Wells · Oct 16, 2001

Joey M,

Romans 9:15-17 (NASB95)
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.”

Predestination/election is one of the toughest concepts of God to swallow, but as you can see above, scripture clearly states that God created (raised you up) Pharaoh specifically to be who he was and do what he did!

On this subject, we must conclude that His ways are higher than our ways. We must remember that God is perfectly just and righteous. Look at it like this: the wonder is not that God chooses to save some and chooses not to save some. The wonder is that God chooses to save anyone, because "there is no one righteous, no not one!"

Chris Temple · Oct 16, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Joey M:
[QB]So let me get this straight. God, made some of His creation so that they could go through this life without hope to be damned to an everlasting firey hell which He (God) made no way of escape for them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Joey:

For what purpose was Judas born, and could he ever have been anything other than a betrayer?

John 17:12 (ESV)
While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Acts 2:22-23 (ESV)
"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— [23] this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Joey M · Oct 17, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> "and foreknowledge of God" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chris, you just answered it for yourself.

God foreknew Judas would not accept Him and therefore used him to His glory.
Same with Pharaoh.

Last topic today-I promise!

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