<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joey M:
He never made Christ, He is Christ and always was from the begining. He himself came in the flesh to die. He didn't make someone to die. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Huh?
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>
"20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, that is why they are without excuse; but it is insufficient knowledge to bring them to salvation.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It is possible for someone to get saved that has never had the gospel preached to them without knowing the gosepl of Christ.
What about many of those of Israel before Christ came, did they know Jesus, No! were they saved? Yes! Because they trusted the one true God and that is Christ. The trinity is inseperable. If one knows the Son he knows the Father and if one knows the Father he knows the Son. That is why Jesus told the pharissees "if you had known the Father you would have known me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Joey:
You've got a different understanding of redemptive history than I do! The pagan nations were saved and worshipped the True God? Where does it say that in the OT? The only time pagans were saved was when they came under the influence of Israel and became either God-fearers or Jewish converts. For the great majority of people in the history of the world, they have never worshipped the God of Israel nor have they been saved. The only ones saved anytime, anywhere are the elect of God, whom He calls to himself and regenerates by the Holy Spirit through the word of God.
Romans 9:6-8 (ESV)
But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, [7] and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." [8] This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.
Romans 9:14-33 (ESV)
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! [15] For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [16] So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. [17] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." [18] So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
[19] You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" [20] But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" [21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? [22] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— [24] even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? [25] As indeed he says in Hosea,
"Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.' "
[26] "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "
[27] And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, [28] for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay." [29] And as Isaiah predicted,
"If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah."
[30] What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; [31] but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. [32] Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, [33] as it is written,
"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
Romans 10:9-17 (ESV)
because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [10] For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. [11] For the Scripture says, "Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame." [12] For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. [13] For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
[14] But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? [15] And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" [16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" [17] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
