Latent Marxism

[FR7 Baptist]

It is not a denomination it is a cooperative.

Yes it is a denomination.

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes it is a denomination.

No it is not ..........Go ask Dr. Brunson, warning I already know what he will say.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

No it is not ..........Go ask Dr. Brunson, warning I already know what he will say.

http://sbc.net/aboutus/clwhydenomination.asp

Let's see what the SBC website has to say.

 

[Crabtownboy]

He did not call for Rome to feed the poor, visit the sick, etc, etc, etc.

Christ knew that Rome had a right-wing attitude toward people. :laugh:

 

[Crabtownboy]

Revisionist lies.

I gently suggest, sir, you do not know your history. Read the French Enlightenment philosophers and read the writings of the founding fathers and you will discover I am correct.

Begin with: Adrienne Koch; Power, Morals, and the Founding Fathers: Essays in the Interpretation of the American Enlightenment (Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 1961).

The Enlightenment is held to be the source of critical ideas, such as the centrality of freedom, democracy, and reason as primary values of society. This view argues that the establishment of a contractual basis of rights would lead to the market mechanism and capitalism, the scientific method, religious tolerance, and the organization of states into self-governing republics through democratic means. In this view, the tendency of the philosophes in particular to apply rationality to every problem is considered the essential change.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment#Influence

The importance of the enlightenment period in the formation of the U.S. government and Constitution lies in the degree of influence, that enlightenment period philosophies had upon the
founding fathers, as they were in the process of creating the form of government, which the United States would eventually adopt.5
Some examples of enlightenment philosophers, who most influence the founding fathers, include Denis Diderot (1713-1784), who was the French Founder and primary editor of the Encyclopedie, “which attempted to capture all human knowledge of that time into one document”. The Encyclopedie included twenty-eight volumes, seventeen in text, and eleven in illustration form. They were published one at a time, from 1751 to 1772. One of his objectives was to capture and preserve all of the important philosophical ideas of the time. Most importantly, the book didn’t just offer facts, but included space for recognized philosophers to explain their own thoughts and ideas. The Encyclopedie became a single, complete source, capturing and presenting the ideas of the most influential philosophers of the time. As a result, and of greatest importance to the enlightenment period, these volumes became the vehicle for the spread of enlightenment philosophies and theories around the world. In addition, Diderot added his own influential discussions on free will and the right to personal possessions.4
Edward Gibbon (1737-1794) was an English historian best known for his Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, where he contributed discussion on the strengths and weaknesses of different types of governments. 1
John Locke (1632-1704) was an English philosopher who spent considerable time in describing the relationship between the state and its people, as being contractual in nature. Thomas Jefferson was heavily influenced by Locke when he argued that a violation of the natural rights of the people by the state “negates the contract which binds a people to their rules”, and that therefore “there is an inherent right to revolution”. Locke’s most influential work was published within two documents known as the Two Treatises of Government (1690). Within those works, Locke argued that “every man is inherently good but necessity of government requires that people compromise on some issues for the betterment of the whole”. He also put forth his ideas for an ideal government and made suggestions, that hinted at the value of a separation of powers doctrine, which was the foundation for the full development of this idea by Montesquieu.6
Barron De Montesquieu (1689-1755) was a French political thinker famous for developing clear statements on the theories of “separation of powers” and “checks and balances” in government. His best known expression of these ideas was published in The Spirit of Laws (1748). 4
Voltaire was the pen name for Francios-Marie Arouet (1694-1778), who was the prime satirist of the enlightenment period. He contributed influential discussion on the importance of intellectual freedom and of the separation of church and state. He also emphasized the importance of reason over superstition and intollerance.4
Jean-Jacques Rousseau (1712-1778) was a French political philosopher who is best known for writing Du Contrat Social, where he puts forth the idea that “Citizens of a state must take part in creating a ‘social contract’”, which lays out the ground rules and limits upon government “in order to form an ideal where the people can be free from arbitrary power”. 7
The philosophies of the enlightenment movement had a profound impact on political discussion in the thirteen colonies. There were a number of prominent Americans who played key roles in the transfer of these ideas from Europe to the New World. Among these was Benjamin Franklin (1709-1790), who traveled back and forth between Europe and the colonies frequently, and who personally interacted with European enlightenment thinkers. 8
Thomas Paine (1737-1809) was an Englishman who immigrated to America, bringing enlightenment philosophies with him. He was best known for publishing the political pamphlet Common Sense (1776), which greatly influenced the decision of colonial leadership to declare independence from England. 2 The influence of the enlightenment period is easy to see within the documents of our government’s formation. The Declaration of Independence barrows heavily from Locke and Rousseau. The U.S. Constitution implements, almost word-for-word, Locke’s and Montesquieu’s ideas of separation of power. “America was founded as a deist country, giving create to some manner of natural God, yet allowing diverse religious expression”, an idea central to the enlightenment philosophy of Europe. 8 Even though the enlightenment period caused massive conflict, extensive suffering, and fueled wars, the rewards that resulted from it all left the western world with hopes and potentials that they had never had before. “The movement resulted in greater freedom, greater opportunity, and generally more humane treatment for all individuals. Although the world still had a long way to go, and indeed still does, the enlightenment arguably marked the first time that western civilization truly became civilized”. 8

Footnotes: 1. Wikipedia. Age of Enlightenment
2. Paine. “Age of Reason”
3. Collier’s Encyclopedia. The Enlightenment; Criticism and Reconstruction
4. SparkNotes. Enlightenment: Section 3
5. Rosen. James Madison and the problem of founding
6. SparkNotes. Enlightenment: Section 2
7. Kenny. An Illustration Brief History of Western Philosophy
8. SparkNotes. Enlightenment: Section 7
Bibliography

http://www.marylandsar.org/SAR-Documents/Essay/Third-Tie(2)-Essay-MDSSAR-0708.pdf

Then read the following:

Colliers Encyclopedia. Volume 15 pg. 681, The Enlightenment, Criticism and Reconstruction. Collier and Son Publishing, 1957.
Kenny, Anthony. “The Enlightenment”, An Illustrated Brief History of Western Philosophy, Mass; Blackwell Publishing 2006, pp 266-271.
Paine, Thomas. “Age of Reason”, Paine, New York; Literacy Classics of the United States, Inc., 1955. Pp. 731-734
Rosen, Gary. American Compact; James Madison and the Problem of Founding. Kansas, University Press of Kansas, 1999, pp 10-42.
SparkNotes. 26 Dec. 2007 http://www.sparknotes.com/history/european/enlightenment/section2.rhtml
SparkNotes, 26 Dec. 2007 http://www.sparknotes.com/history/european/enlightenment/section3.rhtml
SparkNotes, 26 Dec. 2007 http://www.sparknotes.com/history/european/enlightenment/section7.rhtml

Also Will Durant's volume on this era is very readable. In fact his entire 11 volume set collectively entitled "The Story of Civilization" is extremely readable. [/FONT]

 

[Aaron]

I do know my history. Whom did the founding fathers cite? That was my question.

I can find striking parallels between Plato and St. Paul, that doesn't mean Paul was influenced by Plato.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I do know my history. Whom did the founding fathers cite? That was my question.

Then you must know that you have ask a misleading question in that our founding fathers did not footnote their writings. The footnote, as we know it now did not exist in their time.

–noun
1. an explanatory or documenting note or comment at the bottom of a page, referring to a specific part of the text on the page.
2. a minor or tangential comment or event added or subordinated to a main statement or more important event.
–verb (used with object)
3. to add a footnote or footnotes to (a text, statement, etc.); annotate: to footnote a dissertation.
Origin:
1835–45; foot + note

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/footnote

Note the date of the origin of the word, 1835-45.

I can find striking parallels between Plato and St. Paul, that doesn't mean Paul was influenced by Plato.

How do you know that Plato had no influence on St. Paul? Links please.

 

[Revmitchell]

http://sbc.net/aboutus/clwhydenomination.asp

Let's see what the SBC website has to say.

Did you read your link? Baptist is a denomination, Southern Baptist is a cooperative:

"Southern Baptists are sympathetic to these concerns and so firmly hold to the principle of church autonomy and self-rule. The Southern Baptist Convention does not ordain ministers, assign staff to churches, levy contributions to denominational causes, dictate literature and calendar, or assign persons to churches according to place of residence. These are local church matters."

"The Convention is an alliance of churches working in friendly cooperation under the heading "Southern Baptist." A Southern Baptist church is about as independent as you can get and still be counted as part of a denomination(eg "baptist")."

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Did you read your link? Baptist is a denomination, Southern Baptist is a cooperative:

"Southern Baptists are sympathetic to these concerns and so firmly hold to the principle of church autonomy and self-rule. The Southern Baptist Convention does not ordain ministers, assign staff to churches, levy contributions to denominational causes, dictate literature and calendar, or assign persons to churches according to place of residence. These are local church matters."

"The Convention is an alliance of churches working in friendly cooperation under the heading "Southern Baptist." A Southern Baptist church is about as independent as you can get and still be counted as part of a denomination(eg "baptist")."

Yes, I read it and it supports my point. BTW, how do you know what my pastor would say?

 

[Crabtownboy]

Did you read your link? Baptist is a denomination, Southern Baptist is a cooperative:

"Southern Baptists are sympathetic to these concerns and so firmly hold to the principle of church autonomy and self-rule. The Southern Baptist Convention does not ordain ministers, assign staff to churches, levy contributions to denominational causes, dictate literature and calendar, or assign persons to churches according to place of residence. These are local church matters."

"The Convention is an alliance of churches working in friendly cooperation under the heading "Southern Baptist." A Southern Baptist church is about as independent as you can get and still be counted as part of a denomination(eg "baptist")."

Denomination ... the meaning of the word denomination. For clarity in this discussion the definition is:

a religious organization whose congregations are united in their adherence to its beliefs and practices

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/denomination

a religious group, usually including many local churches, often larger than a sect.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/denomination

From a thesaurus:

Main Entry: denomination
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: religious belief
Synonyms:
church, communion, connection, creed, cult, faith, group, persuasion, religion, school, sect

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/denomination

 

[FR7 Baptist]

It appears that Rev. does not know the meaning of the word denomination. For clarity in this discussion the definition is:





From a thesaurus:



So, by definition Baptist fits the definition of denomination.

What I think the reverend is trying to say is that while "Baptist" fits the meaning of a denomination, "Southern Baptist" does not. But thanks for the definition, because it applies to the SBC as well and proves him wrong.

 

[Crabtownboy]

What I think the reverend is trying to say is that while "Baptist" fits the meaning of a denomination, "Southern Baptist" does not. But thanks for the definition, because it applies to the SBC as well and proves him wrong.

Thanks for the reply. I am not sure how whether the SBC is a denomination or not ended up in this thread. It is not on the topic of the OP at all. Maybe someone should start a new thread and let this one go back to its original subject....latent Communism.

Cheers.

 

[billwald]

Why does it only seem important in a historical context?

>I do know my history. Whom did the founding fathers cite? That was my question.

No one on this list seems to care what Obama says, only the text of proposed legislation is important. Why, then, does it matter what the founding fathers cited? Only the legislation they stuck us with is important.

For that matter, the Declaration of Independence has no legislative value iin the USofA. There are no court cases on the Declaration of Independence. It is no part of US law.

 

[Revmitchell]

What I think the reverend is trying to say is that while "Baptist" fits the meaning of a denomination, "Southern Baptist" does not. But thanks for the definition, because it applies to the SBC as well and proves him wrong.

hehe yea go ask your pastor and while your there tell him he is wrong. And while you are there ask him about supporting an abortions as you do.

 

[just-want-peace]

hehe yea go ask your pastor and while your there tell him he is wrong. And while you are there ask him about supporting an abortions as you do.

Bolded mine

Ole Paul will get an earful that he will spend the next semester trying to counter.:smilewinkgrin: Paul just might get his own personal "Hell-fire & Damnation" sermon - in abbreviated form of course!!

Mack is a local product & his mom & dad are still members at the same church Mack grew up in - all the oldsters remember him!!!:tongue3:

 

[FR7 Baptist]

hehe yea go ask your pastor and while your there tell him he is wrong. And while you are there ask him about supporting an[sic] abortions as you do.

I'm not going to dignify this with a response other than to say the bolded part is a lie.

 

[Revmitchell]

I'm not going to dignify this with a response other than to say the bolded part is a lie.

Actual I misspelled that word and it was supposed to be abortionist not abortions. And you did dignify it with a repsonse although an avoidance of the fact that your own pastor would support neither of your positions eg "the SBC is a denomination" or voting and supporting an abortionist.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Actual[sic] I misspelled that word and it was supposed to be abortionist not abortions. And you did dignify it with a repsonse[sic] although an avoidance of the fact that your own pastor would support neither of your positions eg "the SBC is a denomination" or voting and supporting an abortionist.

Nope, I've never voted for an abortionist. I never would. If someone has performed an abortion procedure, I will not vote for that person unless they have repented. BTW, how do you know about my pastor's political views? I've never talked to him about politics. We do have a deacon who is a Democrat. I don't talk about politics very much at church because that's not the purpose of church.

 

[Revmitchell]

Nope, I've never voted for an abortionist. I never would. If someone has performed an abortion procedure, I will not vote for that person unless they have repented. BTW, how do you know about my pastor's political views? I've never talked to him about politics. We do have a deacon who is a Democrat. I don't talk about politics very much at church because that's not the purpose of church.

I know go ask him. And an abortionist is also someone who supports the abortion cause:


a⋅bor⋅tion⋅ist
  /əˈbɔrʃənɪst/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [uh-bawr-shuh-nist] Show IPA
Use abortionist in a Sentence
See images of abortionist
Search abortionist on the Web
–noun
1. a person who performs or induces abortions, esp. illegally.
2. a person who favors or advocates abortion as a right or choice that all women should have: usually intended as an offensive term.
Origin:
1870–75, Americanism; abortion + -ist

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abortionist

You support Obama therefore you support an abortionist.

 

[FR7 Baptist]

I know go ask him. And an abortionist is also someone who supports the abortion cause:

How do you know? My music minister once said that we should put aside our political differences at church and work together for the gospel. I think that is sound advice, so I don't talk about politics much at church.