Law & Liberty. The definition of legalism

[JamesL]

James thank you for the question;

"Do you think you have only "positionally" been "made holy"
Answer; yes even as Christ is holy

Do you believe "made holy" will ever become a reality and actuality?

Or do you believe you will enter heaven actually sinful, yet viewed as righteous?

 

[JamesL]

Thank you for being open and honest about the position of noncalvinists, but dadblame you for making us wade through that cesspool of blasphemy to get to it.

That gave me a good laugh this morning, the way you worded it. dadblame - hilarious

Although, it appears that you might have misunderstood me as advocating Arminianism. I don't. I have just as much disdain for Arminianism as I do Calvinism

I know that the majority of Calvinists believe that anyone who is not Roman Catholic are either Calvinist or Arminian, but there are some of us who are neither

 

[Van]

What would flow? That depends on whether one is led by the Holy Spirit or the flesh. Read the parable of the sower. Jesus explained that there were 4 soils. The only one said to not believe is the first one. Satan snatches the WORD so that he may not BELIEVE and be SAVED.

Matthew 13:1-23 presents the parable of the sower. Only one of the four soils was saved, the fourth soil. Yes, the 2 and 3 soils did believe, but not wholeheartedly. Thus God did not credit their "faith" as righteousness. This teaches fallen men can seek God and His Christ, but not be fully committed to God or Christ, thus flunking the lover your God with all your heart command.

I don't know where you get this nonsense that ALL who believe in eternal security also believe that good works proves salvation. There are many Eternal Security believers who recognize that the bible is not being facetious in its warnings to believers against falling away

You are right, doing good works does not prove you are saved. I stand corrected. The lack of striving over time to do good works proves the absence of salvation.

Once Saved, Always Saved teaches that if God has "saved" you then you will persevere in good works. Another way to put it is "once working, always working"

This may describe the "P" of Calvinism, but does not describe OSAS. People can be sidetracked and build on the foundation of Christ with stuff that earns no rewards, and so they enter heaven as one escaping from a fire.

You need to do some research into what OSAS, because it has nothing at all to do with security found in Christ

Well one of us does!

But by your reference, you acknowledge that not ALL of us who hold to the security of the saints also believe that good works are a necessary component in our eternal destination

Again you are right, the "Easy Believeism" folks fall outside my view.

These two paragraphs of yours are in total conflict. If someone's works are burned up, and he is "saved as one escaping the flames" and he has no reward, then he has no good works. Paul taught that our works will be tested to determine the quality, whether good or bad. Good works will not be burned up. So if a man has none after the fire, then he had none before the fire

But those sidetracked folks who produced little or nothing meriting reward, had put their faith in Christ such that God credited it as righteousness, thus a good work, and they had strived (mistaken as they were) to earn rewards through good works.

There you have exposed your belief that faith and commitment are synonymous. Faith is not a commitment, faith is assurance:

Romans 4:21-24
and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. Therefore it was also credited to him as righteousness. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead

Commitment comes after one believes and is credited with righteousness.

If you do a study of the word translated fully assured in your reference, Luke 1:1, Romans 4:21, Romans 14:5, 2 Timothy 4:5 and 2 Timothy 4:17, you will see that it refers to someone fully committed, such that they do their best to accomplish their ministry.

John 12:42-43
Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

Hardly sounds like a life of good works. They would not even confess Christ, though the believed in Him.

These like the second and third soils did not put their wholehearted faith in Christ, thus to assert they were saved is dubious at best.

What about the sin unto death? Many OSAS believe that 1John 5:16-17 is alluding to God's judgment of physical death for a believer. WHAT ?!?

If God judges a believer with physical death, what is the process? Options:
1) Believer backslides, then comes back, then God kills him
2) Believer backslides, and God kills him before he comes back

Why would God kill the man after he comes back? Wouldn't that mean the man confessed his sin and was cleansed of unrighteousness? Ref 1John 1:9

But if God kills him before he comes back, wouldn't that mean the man is in a state of NOT persevering ??

You have knocked down your strawman, but no one had advocated that view. There are more views of what 1 John 5:16-17 is talking about than you can shake a stick at. My view, shared with many others, is that the sin leading to death is to reject Jesus as the Son of God and the Christ sent by God to redeem whoever believes in Him. That is the sin leading to death, and we should not ask for God to forgive that sin.

But, really, I never intended to argue the fallacies of the fictitious doctrine of OSAS, I was simply observing that by holding this doctrine, the Calvinist is simply an Arminian in disguise.

Your view may be the fallacy as shown above.

Whether one believes works will "keep" their standing or "prove" their standing, both agree in substance. No works, no heaven. But Paul taught justification by faith APART from works. Your view says "Faith, not apart from works"

My view is that faith refers to faithful faith, a faith from which efforts toward good works flow, the "alive" faith of James, and not the dead faith of Easy Believeism.

And why did he not capitalize on the opportunity to expound a position similar to yours? He could have ended all discussion by inserting one sentence - Works naturally and necessarily flow from saving faith. But he DIDN'T. Why is that?

Perhaps he thought we would realize the fruit of the Spirit are the good works that flow from faithful faith.

Suppose I have faith, but I do not persevere in good works. Will I enter heaven?
Arminian: No
Van: fill in your answer here

Van answered and here it is again, if a person was actually saved, then they will enter heaven as one escaping from a fire. Ring a bell?

Suppose I start out with faith in Christ, then fall away. Will I enter heaven?
Arminian: No
Van: fill in your answer here

Van answered and here it is again, if a person starts out with faith and then falls away, like the second or third soil of Matthew 13, they were never saved in the first place, never born anew. But if a person is actually born anew, then 1 Peter 1:3-5 teaches God protects their faith such that they will never even think about walking away.

In closing, I want to say thanks, not very many people on this forum were able to poke so many holes in my posts as you just did. But, at the end of the day, easy believeism is not what the Bible actually teaches or so I believe.