Law of Christ

Hrhema:
Your post as it pertains to the Old Testament is not binding on men today. Gal. 3:24,25, Col, 2:14, Eph. 2:15. I would also like to point out that in the Old Testament POLYGAMY WAS TOLERATED. SLAVERY WAS TOLERATED. I Kgs. 11:3, Lev.25:10. Are you saying we should allow Slavery and Polygamy, today? If not why not?
God allowed, under the Law of Moses, for men to put away their wives by giving them a bill of divorcement. However, Jesus said," in the beginning it was NOT SO." See Gen. 2:24,Mat. 19:7-9.
Furthermore, your interpretation of I Cor. 7:15 contradicts JESUS who said there is one and only one reaosn to divorce. Mat. 19:9.

Your statement about music in true worship to God is UNSUBSTANTIATED by SCRIPTURE. The New testament supports singing,not playing. Here is the entire list of scripturs about this matter.
1. Mat. 26:30. Jesus sang a hymn.
2. Col. 3:16. Let the word of Christ dwell in you with all wisdom, not the piano.
3. Eph. 5:19. Speaking to yourselves in psalms,hymns and spiritual songs singing and makiing melody in yuo rhearet to the Lord. Note: speaking to yourselves is a reciprocal reflective pronoun which requires PEOPLE TO SPEAK TNE ANOTHER.
4.I Cor. 14:15. One is to sing with understanding. It implies the use of the mind not an object.
5. Paul and Silas were singers, not players. Acts 16:25.
6. Hebrews 2;12. Requires the use of words as the one declaring must proclaiming and praising is using the name of Jesus,not a sound.
7, Romans 15:9. employs the use of words to declare his name .
Mechanical instruments used in worship to God began under the reign of pope Vitallin in the late 600's. The use of mechanical instrumetns of worship are absent in the first century church. Acts 2:42, as their is no example of Christians using them.

Mechanical Instruments were opposed by Methodists Adam Clarke, John Wesley. Albet Barnes a Presbyterian lexicographer opposed them, as did the Baptist preacher Charles Spurgeon, to name a few. Their opposition was based on the lack of scriptural support for the practice.

With all due respect, I suggest you study the scripture before making your assertions about God, the Bible, and those who follow it.

Your post contains nothing more than unsubstantiated false teaching and inuendo.

If you actually believe your post to be true, use the divine record to support it. This is the honorable way to conduct a discussion on truth.

 

CHEM:
There is a law of Christ. I Cor. 9:21. It is the perfect law of Liberty. James 1:25. It is an authoratative law. James 2:17. It a was the serves the needs of others. Gal. 6:2. It also referred to as the law of faith. Romans 3:27.

 

Rev.5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

 

Once again you have proven to have a flawed hermenuetic. 1 Cor 9:21 points to the decalogue as does Gal 6 and James, Romans makes no mention of a law of faith. The term Christ's Law or law of Christ is only a synonym for the decalogue, not some new law.

 

DHK:
Rev. 5:8 is a vision into heaven. The language employs symbolic language vials, harps. The text in verse 9 says that they SUNG a new song. Harps represented the singing in heaven, vs. 9. The bowls or vials represents the prayers of the saints.
This passage is not one that adresses the true worship described in the new testament for the church today. We are not in heaven. If you are impling literal meaning, then you should get four beasts, four and twenty elders who fall down before the Lamb, each one having harps,and golden vials full of odours which are the prayers of the saints. NOTICE: it is the four and twenty elders with the harps, not everyone. NOTICE: in vs, 9, they Sang, not played. According to vs. 1,3,6,7, this is to take place at the throne of God.

 

CHEM:
Romans 3:27 states," where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? Nay: But BY THE LAW OF FAITH.
Furthermore, I Cor. 9;21 states, " To them that are without law, ( BUT NOT BEING WITHOUT LAW TO GOD BUT UNDER THE LAW OF CHRIST,)that I might gain them that are without law. The first phrase is about the gentiles who were strangers from the promises of the covenant who were not subject to the law of Moses. Eph. 3: 11-19. They were subject to God's moral laws. Romans 1:22-27. Now, they are under the Law of Christ even though they were not under the Old Law.
Gal. 6:2 is a reference to the law of Christ as it says and so fulfill the law of Christ. This letter was written to Christians. Galatians addresses the abuses of the law of Christ by Jews.

One of the rules of interpretation requires the meaning to be consistent with the immediate context and the remote context of the subject under discussion.
Moreover, the passage under study must harmonize with other related passsages.
In view of these facts, it appears the one with the hermeneutical problem is you.

 

So why don't you apply the rules?
You are trying to make faith into a meritorous work. If you would actually keep in mind the context of the entirerty of scripture you would realize your own fallacy. I would also argue that the translation of νομοσ as law in Rm 3 is actually a bad translation. and that principle or rule would be a better rendition, because to render νομοσ as law leads people to false believe that faith is a work.

Where do you come up with this stuff. Even the gentiles are under the Law Rm 2:14. In 1 cor 9:21 you missed the change in reference νομοσ switched from Levitical law to the decalogue (Law of God), also here again Law of Christ is most likely a bad rendering of the word νομοσ a better rendition may be Rule of Christ.

Again this is only a reference to the decalogue, because Christ himself referred back to love of ones neighbor as yourself as fulfillment of the law.

 

Rom.5:8 is a scene in Heaven of what it will be like in Heaven when we sing praises to God in Heaven, and it does employ musical instruments. The fact of the matter is you contradicted yourself when you stated:

There are the playing of instruments in the New Testament. You did not give the entire list.
DHK

[ December 04, 2002, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

Chem:
You are being dishonest with the text! Romans 3:27 says absolutely NOTHING about meritorious works.You inserted that statement woithout any justification whatsoever. NONE!
Words have meaning! I understand what the words Law of Faith mean. They do not mean as yousay meritorious works. Law is a standard or boundry by which men must live. Of ( preposition) denoting location or possession. Faith (noun) denoting a specific type system, in this case Law or standard. NONE of these words mean works of merit,nor do they imply such.
My hermeneutics are based on reliable principles of interpertation. The obvious problem is you do not understand word meanings in the english language. Perhaps, you should enroll in a remedial english or linguistics class.

 

DHK:
the fact is Rev 5:8 does not say they played at all. It simply mentions they were with the elders. This scripture is a future view of heaven,not the church worshipping at the present.
It absurd to try and use this scripture to support the false claim.
You simply cannot prove your ststement so you resort to taking scripture out of context and then forcing and implication that is not there.
There is not one example of anyone playing and instrument in the new testament. I posted all the scriptures that were relevant to this discussion.
Rev. 5:8 is a picture into heaven. Therfore, IT IS NOT GERMAIN TUR DISCUSSION HERE. It is not the new testament church on earth in worship. It employs figurative language, not literal. The figures in the text represent old testament types. Four and twenty elders, vials, harps. In order to understand the relationship to the new testament, one must examine the scriptures on the topic. I have posted them.
There is no contradiction. Rev 5:8 is in harmony with other views into heaven. It also has nothing to do with the here and now of worship. NO EVIDENCE!

 

I would think that if God would approve of instruments in Heaven, that He would approve of them on earth.

A harp is a harp is a harp.
Words have meanings. Harps are to be played. Does the Lord put harps in Heaven to look pretty. The reference in Revelation is that they were playing their harps, and singing. That much seems obvious.
DHK

 

Frank, Frank, Frank... Maybe you should take the remedial class. In no way did I actually claim that that it means a meritorious work. I made the claim that you are making it into a meritorious work.

DHK, you aren't playing fair. You are using all of the Bible instead of limiting yourself to less then 1/3 of scripture like Frank is doing to himself. I personally cannot believe that this group Frank represents can so wantonly disabuse people of their right to share their God given talents in public worship.

[ December 04, 2002, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: Chemnitz ]

 

Chem:
You have made an unsubstantiated opinion! I did not make anything into meritorious works. You simply implied or made the charge without any scriptural support. You are being dishonest. It is called the strawman principle.Just another denominational attempt to circumvent the truth.
Prove I have made the law of a faith meritorious works. BOOK CHAPTER AND VERSE please! Please, no I Think, I Feel, Martin Luther said, or my opinion. Just prove your assertion by the Bible.

Faith is not meritorious but it is obedient. This is the case when thefaith is biblical faith that pleases God. Hebrews 11:6, Romans 16:26; 6:17,18, James 2:17,24.

 

DHK:
What you think about Rev. 5:8 may not be true when one examines all the related passages on the subject. In fact, that is exactly what I have done. And, your inference contradicts the clear passages in the Bible that teach us to communicate to one another through words from the heart expressed as the fruit of our lips. Eph. 5:19, Col 3:16 I Cor. 14:15, Hebrews 13:15.
Furthermore, it is assumption to say that the harps are literal when this is a vision employing symbols from the old testament. A testament no longer in force. Hebs. 9:15-17. A harp was an instrument that made a melodious sound. It was plucked. This is from the Old Testament. Now, what does the Bible say in the New testament about what is to be plucked for melody? It is the heart of man. Eph. 5:19, Col. 3:16.
Yes, harps are meant to be plucked for melody. In Rev. 5:8 the harp along with the other things mentioned are symbols of the glory of heaven, not the literal object itself.. If so, then on Sunday, you should get the vial and burn the prayers of the saints in it. Since you are a Baptist, I doubt you have four and twenty elders to hold the harps. Of course, Baptist have choirs,not elders with harps. Finally, I hope you have been to heaven for a visit to learn the new song SUNG there. Your literal interpretation of Rev. 5:8 contradicts the plain teachings on music in the New Testament. It is subjective speculation in view of the symbolic language employed in the verse posted. It is ,in fact, erroneous based on the totality of the evidence contained in the New Testament as it pertains to the singing in true worship to the Lord.

 

Granted - in Matt 22:36-40 Christ quotes Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 (Love for God and Love for your neighbor) and points out (Pre-Cross) that these Mosaic laws (God's Law of Love - His "Royal Law") forms the foundation and basis for both the LAw AND the prophets - prophetic scripture.

And of course Christ also perfectly fulfilled the prescriptive requirements of the Law of Love.

But Christ Also states that His Pre Cross Commandments were to be kept by those who love Christ. "If you Love Me Keep My commandments" John 14:14. The pre-cross commandments are to be kept by those who love Christ - as Christ's commandments - and of course, Christ IS God. They are God's commandments.

The entire reason that this subject comes up as "undefined" or "needing definition" is that many a story has been told where a "distinctions wihtout a difference" is inserted between Christ and God, between Christ's Word and God's Word - EVEN THOUG CHrist said that He spoke "nothing of my Own Word" -- John 12:49 The "FAther has given Me Commandment, What to say and what to speak".

The constant efforts to drive a wedge between the commandments of God and those of Christ - are explicitly rejected by the Word of Christ in the Gospels.

That is a difficult statement for some groups - but we must get comfortable with letting scripture speak for itself - and taking in all the statements found therein - not just a few favored ones. The boundary set by each one adds to the total picture which is why the John 14:14 connection to John 12:49 is so consinstently absent from those who drive the wedge between the "Commandments of God" and "Commandments of Christ" - a distinction without a difference.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Ok, I know.

I haven't prooftexted anything because I have been dealing solely with your "proof". Now stop acting like a baby and defend your proofs.

In a previous post you equated the "Law of Faith" with the "Law of Christ" to which you said obey it. So obviously you must belief faith to be a meritorious work, because according to you faith is active obedience. If faith is active obedience then it is a work. If it is a work that grants salvation then it must be a meritorious work. However, faith is not a work it is a gift of God and active obedience is the fruit of faith (Gen 1:1-Rev 22:21)

Do you even bother reading the verses to which your concordance points?

Heb 11:6 "and with out faith it is impossible to please him,..." speaks nothing of faith being obedience. Yet 11:1 describes faith as "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen". That is not obedience.

Rms 6:17-18 does not even speak of faith.
16:16 You almost had one right, but you got one problem πιστεωσ is a genetive and in the Greek genitives have many different uses and in this case it describes the source of obedience. So once again you have point to a fruit of faith, not a definition of faith as obedience. Which is very consistant with the use of obedience in the text of Romans.

Jas 2:17,24 Now either you believe faith is a work or you are confused by the whole concept of two kinds of righteousness. I have said it before and I will say it again. Not once do these passages relate to works justifying before God, only before man. Otherwise it would stand in direct opposition to eph 2:8-9,hebs 11, Rms 6:23;4-5. Not to mention the fact that if James meant works justifying before God he would knowingly stand in opposition to Isa 64:6, where it is clear that all good works are still stained by sin and are therefore no good before God.

 

CHEM:
Faith that pleases God is obedient. One must Come to GOD Hebrews 11:6. Cometh is continous action.
EVERY EXAMPLE IN BOTH THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT WHERE GOD GAVE MAN A SPIRITUAL BLESSING WAS BY AN OBEDIENT FAITH! NO EXCEPTIONS! READ THE ENTIRE BOOK OF HEBREWS,ESPECIALLY CHAPTER 11.

It is an erroneous assertion James is discussing justification before men. This is a subjective interjection to the text. James does not declare, give an example of such, nor imply it! James ask the question Can faith SAVE him? I believe save requires forgiveness and salvation. Both are from God ,not from or before men. James 2:14 Furthermore, Abraham was justiifed before God in the account of his sacrifice of Isaac. God was present with Abraham on Mount Moriah. There was no audience to see it! You should follow your own advice and read the scriptures. God spoke to Abraham then he returned to those he had left at the foot of the mountain. Gen. 22:1-17.

You despise proof texting. Yet, Jesus used proof texting. Jesus said to the Jews is it not written that ye are Gods? John 9:34. Jesus responded with a proof text for his deity by using Psalms 82:6.

 

Chem:
There are different types of works in the Bible.
Titus 3:5. Works of Righteousness.
Gal. 5:19-20. Works of the flesh.
John7:28,29. The works of God that Jesus said WE MUST DO.
James 2:21. Works that justify.
Eph. 2:8,9. Works of Merit.
Are ALL these works the same? if not why not? Do all these works grant salvation or deny salvation? Why? or Why Not?
Faith without obedience is a dead and unproductive faith. It bears no fruit. James chapter 2. It is a faith that does not save. vs. 14. The source of faith is from the evidence received by the word of God. Romans 10:17, John 20:30,31. It is a faith that is always active in obeying God. John 3:36.

 

Frank call it what you want, but a work is a work is a work. And not a single one of our works merits justification by God. Only the Grace of God through faith justifies us before God. Eph 2:8-9.

So am I to take it from your statement that you believe that faith is our work?

I never said a dead faith saves. I have only said the fruits of faith do not merit justification. I wish you would actually read what I write instead of superimposing your presuppositions on to my responses.

Once again you are isolating a portion of scripture from the rest of Scripture. In fact it appears that you didn't even read the whole of Gen 22:1-17, because Abraham is not declared justified rather he is granted earthly blessings (the promise of many descendants). Not to mention the fact that in both Romans and in Hebrews, it explicitly states that Abraham was justified by his faith and not by his works. And that we know that he is justified by faith because of his works, but those works are of no merit before God as far as our justification is concerned. Because, through the crucifixion of Jesus he declared us justified (Rm 3:22-26).

Again stop whining about my opinion on prooftexting and defend your proofs.

 

CHEM:
The Bible calls it justification by a working active faith. Gen. 22:1-17, Gal 3:26-29, James 2: 21-24, Eph.2:8,9, Hebrews 11 and EVERY EXAMPLE OF BIBLICAL FAITH IN THE DIVINE RECORD. NO EXCEPTIONS.
Your teaching implies a dead faith. This faith never has saved anyone or ever pleased God. NEVER. James 2:14,17,27.
There is NOT ONE example of anyone being blessed without an obedient active faith.
Every account of Abraham's life that is pleasing and acceptable to God involved an obedient active faith. EVERY ONE! Hebrews 11:8 says," By faith Abraham when he was called to go out into a place which he should receive for an inheritance,OBEYED; and he went out not knowing wither he went. In Verse 9 By faith he SOJOURNED in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of te SAME promise. WHAT KIND OF PROMISE? Vs. 10 says," For he looked for a city
which hath foundations whose builder and maker is God. Vs. 13 These ALL DIED in faith not having RECEIVED the promises, but having seen them a far off, and embraced them, and confessed they were strangers and pilgrims on this earth. Vs. 16 says," But now they desire a better country that is, an HEAVENLY; wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for he hath prepared for them a city."
The Bible teaches men today are justiifed by the same type faith as Abraham. Hebrews 11:6-9, John 8:39, Gal. 3:24-29.
Your assertion that the promises were physical and excluded spiritual blessings are WRONG. Hebrews 11:10-19, Gen 22:1-17, Gal. 3:26-29. The Bible says so. In Abraham's seed ALL NATIONS were blessed. See Gal. 3:8,9,27. These blessings were spiritual blessings through his seed. In Mat. 8:11, the Bible says," And I say unto you that many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with ABRAHAM,and ISAAC, aand JACOB in the kingdom of heaven."
The Bible, in Romans 4:2-4. disavows WORKS OF MERIT OR BOASTING,not obedient faith. Vs. 2 teaches it is not by works of glory or as Eph. 2:8,9 states, boasting. If Abraham would have earned his salvation or blessings it would have made God a debtor. Paul in vs.4 disavows this conclusion, too. The Bible say so!However, that is your problem. I believe all the harmonious record about biblical faith.
By the way, JESUS used prooftexts. I guess that says a lot about your attitude toward the truth. Unfortunately for you, this post does not use a prooftext, but you so not like it any better. Of course, I would not either if I believed the false doctrine you espouse!
You have yet to learn there are more than works of merit in the Bible. Again, in order to believe your teaching you are forced to ignore them. However, here they are for those interested in truth. One,works of the flesh. Gal. 5:19,20. Two, works of Righteousness. Titus 3:5. Works of the Law. Gal. 3:11. Works of Abraham. John 8:33.
By the way, stop making false accusations about me taking scripture out of context, or as you say isolating them. I have done no such thing. I have harmonized the old testament and the new testament accounts of Abraham.

I would like to know the book, chapter and verses that teach Abraham was ever justified by a dead faith or disobedience.

By the way, I do not whine,I just expose false teachers such as yourself. You are the one complaining, not me! And, I will say and present the truth in the manner of my choosing, not yours!
If you do not like it, do not respond to me or post false doctrine. Otherwise, you will continue to be exposed and corrected.