Laws of Interpretation

Probably, but in this particular thread, the millennial issue is a prime example of the differences in the subject of meaning. So it is an appropriate test case.

Not when we are talking about literary meaning. Meaning, as we are using it here, is what a text communicates to a reader. It is not about fulfillment or existential meaning. It is about communication. In that, the texts have meaning without the NT in that the communicate truth that can be understood. YOu are using meaning incorrectly in this objection.

Incorrect. Jesus didn't take Nicodemus "beyond the Old Covenant." He rebukes him for not knowing this truth from the OT. His question "Are you a teacher of Israel and don't know these things?" indicates that a teacher of Israel (who used the OT) should have known what Jesus was talking about. That is hardly "beyond." Secondly, the OT never says that salvation is for those "born a Jew in the flesh." Spiritual salvation is for those "circumcised in heart," those who have faith (Gen 15:6).

 

I have ... ... I have listed more verse than you can address. I listed two more above. I have told you where to find the biblical arguments for an earthly kingdom laid out in a systematic fashion. If you are truly interested, then read it. Deal with the passages I referenced above. Don't play dumb on us here. Don't pretend like I haven't given any support.

 

quote: (Larry).."Don't pretend like I haven't given any support"

You haven't given scriptural support for an earthly kingdom! You just deny the truth of John 18:36 as it is written in its context, lexicons that are all about the interpretations of words, not presenting theological doctrine, and then totally dismiss respected commentators that have been used for centuries in preference for Darby/Scofield doctrine that suddenly appeared in the "last days."

You may be among the majority in thought but then it was always the "remnant" that was dedicated to truth.

 

Are you kidding? You have to be. Just on the previous page I gave two explicit references to Scripture along with argumentation that showed an earthly kingdom. On the previous page I gave more, including Acts 1 and 3. In addition, I gave you a resource that you could read and study if you are truly interested. You are either not reading or being dishonest if you say I have given no Scripture in support of an earthly kingdom.

Why do you think you have the truth? I haven't denied the truth. I have disagreed with you about what the truth of that verse is, and I have given reasons for it.

No, not really. They are about defining words.

Some do, and some don't. In that particular case, Thayer was giving theological doctrine, whether he meant to or not.

Historically incorrect yet again. The doctrine I hold is not new. It has been around for many centuries prior to Darby.

Theologically incorrect as well: The test of orthodoxy is not who holds it, but does the Bible teach it. On that basis, I disagree with amill and post mill teaching. It is not the teaching of the Bible.

Personally inaccurate: I haven't dismissed respected commentators. I would argue that Clarke and Barnes are not necessarily in that category, but they are decent. But as you well know, they are men, and men (both they, you, and I) are all known to be incorrect. The fact that these men said things in print doesn't make them right. I use Barnes and get some profit from him. I don't have Clarke but would use him if I did. But to the point, I have dismissed them. I have considered the points that they make and have studiously rejected them because I don't see them in Scripture.

This statement doesn't appear to make much sense. I am not in the majority in anyway. Most Christians (loosely used) are not premill and dispensational. Most Christians in history were not that according to you (since there was 1800 years of Christians who were amill ... something demonstrably wrong, but nevertheless demonstrates that this claim is inconsistent with your earlier statements). I am not even in the majority in this thread. I am the remnant, holding to the biblical truth while others reject it.

I say that lightheartedly. I am not questioning your salvation or your commitment to truth of Scripture. I do think you are incorrect on this point, and you will be premill one day. We all will because we will be living in it .. But seriously, don't attack me like I am the enemy simply because I disagree with you on a point of Scripture. And don't pretend like what I believe has never been defended. I bet, if we honestly started looking at verses, you couldn't keep up. I know that from experience. This forum is not well suited to that, but suffice it to say, that if you are interested in learning, you don't have to do it in this limited forum. There are plenty of resources that will help teach you about what we believe, even if they don't convince you.

You may be among the majority in thought but then it was always the "remnant" that was dedicated to truth.

 

Then provide scriptural proof for denying John 18:36 teaches a spiritual kingsdom.

 

The Scriptural proof is found in the context and in Scripture. I will say again what I have already said in hopes that you will read it and think about it.

In the context, Jesus (the king of the Jews) is brought to trial by the Jews over whom he is allegedly king. Pilate questions how this can be, how his own people can be turning him over, if he is truly their king. Jesus' response is that his kingdom is not "of this world," meaning that it doesn't find its source or origin in this world. It is different than that.

In the wider context of Scripture, we see the clear evidence that the kingdom of God is earthly (clear statements, original understanding, etc), and Jesus would not contradict that. Why would Jesus say his kingdom was not earthly in contradiction to what God had already said? That makes no sense.

In essence what you are doing is interpreting a lot of clear verses by one more obscure verse because it supports your contention. You should interpret the one in light of the many. The question you want him to be answering (spiritual vs. earthly) is not the questioning he is answering. He is answering a question of origins, who makes him King and who will establish that kingship and kingdom. His answer is "not of this world ... not brought about by bigger armies such as the Roman empire. It doesn't originate in this cosmos." It originates in another cosmos. That does not say that it won't take place in this world. We have too much evidence to the contrary.

 

Jews were expecting for Messiah comes to set the kingdom on earth, and to set kingdom in Jerusalem, also, to takeover Roman Empire. Pharisee asked Christ, when the kingdom of God should come. Christ said unto him, 'The kingdom of God cometh NOT with observation. NEITHER shall they say, 'Lo here!' or 'lo there!', behold the kingdom of God is WITHIN you." - Luke 17:20-21.

Pharisees were expecting the kingdom of God shall be set on earth in physical and visibly. But, Christ told them, the kingdom of God comes NOT with observation, it is within them, Christ was spoken of spiritual.

The kingdom is not a earthly, but heavenly from above. There is none verse find anywhere in the Bible telling us that kingdom is a earthly.

Premils stress that the kingdom of God shall be set on earth for a thousand years -millennail kingdom shall be fulfilled in Jerusalem.

Christ ALREADY bring the kingdom when He began his ministry, and died on the cross, then He risen from the death. Then, he send the kingdom unto disciples include Church by the Holy Spirit. That we now have power given from Christ to spread the gospel of the kingdom according Matt. 16:18-19.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world....i.e - it didn't come from this world nor will it will not be of this world.

"If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would fight so that I might not be delivered to the Jews."...i.e. If my reign were to be earthly, I have legions of angels that would protect from the Jews and my earthly kingdom would be established on earth and absolutely no one could stop it!

"BUT now My kingdom is NOT from here"....i.e. The time has come. I will be ruling from the right hand of the father until this world is burned and the New Jerusalem descends from heaven for eternity.

 

But again, as I pointed out, look at the context. Your interpretation borders on absurdity. Why would Christ tell his enemies, those who rejected him, that the kingdom was within them? He was talking to Pharisees, not believers. Your view might have some merit if he were talking to believers. Even then it would ahve to deal with teh mass of contradictory OT teaching, but it would at least have some merit. But do you seriously pretend that Christ told unbelievers that the kingdom was within them? Surely not ...

That is simply false. I already referenced several passages and you have yet to answer them. Tell us where those places are where the kingdom will be. Tell us why the disciples talked about a "restoration"? If the kingdom is spiritual, then it cannot be a restoration. If it is a restoration, then it has to be earthly because that is the only kind of kingdom that existed.

Well, which was it? And why didn't Christ tell his disciples this in ACts 1 when all this had already happened. They asked him when he would restore the kingdom. If you are right, he should have told them that he had already done so, that they were mistaken. But instead, Jesus allowed them to go on believing (falsely according to you) that the kingdom would still come. That simply will not wash.

 

Pastor Larry,

You saying, that passage of Luke 17:20-21, Christ was speak toward Pharisees who reject Him, not Christians.

Not always.

Not just pharisees, also, MANY Jews were expecting that their King will come to earth, and to set the kingdom by observation, to takeover Roman Empire. Not only Pharisees, even, also, disciples were expecting Christ would set the kingdom on earth - Acts 1:6. Disciples had the wrong idea on the purpose of the kingdom. Disciples asked Christ, want to know when the kingdom will be restore again to Israel(physical nation of Jews). Disciples were still not understand the meaning of kingdom. Christ already taught them, that the kingdom is not with observation, but it is spiritual from above, which is within in them(disciples).

Kingdom of God/heaven is God sets His rule within believers' heart by through the Holy Sporit, that Christ is ruling through the Church from the throne above in the heavn by sit on the right hand of God the Father. Kingdom of God/heaven is already present within us, that Christ is ruling through the Church for 2,000 years from above. Christ is ruling both in heaven and earth(Matt. 28:18).

Christ told them, "It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in HIS OWN POWER. BUT ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is COME UPON YOU: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." - Acts 1:7-8.

Christ does not emphasis on the kingdom of God shall be restored in israel as observation, as disciples were expecting. Christ told them, that He shall send the kingdom of God/heaven unto them, by send the Holy Spirit pour down on them. Then, on Pentacost day, Peter and disciples were preached the gospel of the kingdom to the Jews, 3,000 Jews were saved. Church received the kingdom of God/heaven given by Jesus Christ according Matt. 16:18-19; & Matt. 28:18.

I hope that you would understand what the kingdom of God/heaven is all about.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Pastor Larry,

Again, I ask you, list verse please.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Various legitimate interpretations:

Is within you - This is capable of two interpretations.
1. The reign of God is “in the heart.” It does not come with pomp and splendor, like the reign of temporal kings, merely to control the external “actions” and strike the senses of people with awe, but it reigns in the heart by the law of God; it sets up its dominion over the passions, and brings every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.
2. It may mean the new dispensation is “even now among you.” The Messiah has come. John has ushered in the kingdom of God, and you are not to expect the appearance of the Messiah with great pomp and splendor, for he is now among you. Most critics at present incline to this latter interpretation. The ancient versions chiefly follow the former. (Barnes)

the kingdom of God is among you; and the meaning be, that the king Messiah was already come, and was among them, and his kingdom was already set up, of which the miracles of Christ were a full proof; and if they could not discern these signs of the times, and evident appearances of the kingdom of God among them, they would never be able to make any observation of it, hereafter, or elsewhere. (Gill)

Within
Better, in the midst of. Meyer acutely remarks that “you refers to the Pharisees, in whose hearts nothing certainly found a place less than did the ethical kingdom of God.” Moreover, Jesus is not speaking of the inwardness of the kingdom, but of its presence. “The whole language of the kingdom of heaven being within men, rather than men being within the kingdom, is modern” (Trench, after Meyer). (Vincents Word Studies)

Within you (entos humōn). This is the obvious, and, as I think, the necessary meaning of entos. The examples cited of the use of entos in Xenophon and Plato where entos means “among” do not bear that out when investigated. Field (Ot. Norv.) “contends that there is no clear instance of entos in the sense of among” (Bruce), and rightly so. What Jesus says to the Pharisees is that they, as others, are to look for the kingdom of God within themselves, not in outward displays and supernatural manifestations. It is not a localized display “Here” or “There.” It is in this sense that in Luk_11:20 Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God as “come upon you” (ephthasen eph' humās), speaking to Pharisees. (RWP)

 

Funny thing is, I can't find one translation that says that, and the Greek doesn't say it either (which is why the translations don't). Jesus made a categorical statement: The kingdom is in your midst. He said nothing about looking for it. This is an example of what you are doing to the text to try to arrive at your position.

This is exactly the point. When Jesus was on earth, he was doing "kingdom things." If you were to enhance your understanding by reading McClain, he makes this point very well by discussing hte six aspects of hte kingdom.

 

I already did, in this thread and in many others. If you are interested, look at the verses and talk about them. Don't keep repeating questions that have already been asked and answered.

 

Pastor Larry,

Why not you give the list of verses to us in this topic now?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Yes, always. In Luke 17:20-21 Christ is always talking to Pharisees. Other places, he talked to others, but that context has not changed for 2000 years, and it won't now.

I do. When you read the Bible you don't see a kingdom in human hearts. There is no doubt that Christ rules in human hearts of believers. But that is not what the Bible prophesies.

I have given in this topic, and I am not going to reinvent the wheel. If you are interested, I gave you a resource to begin your study. My suspicion is that you are not that interested; you just want some kind of debate. I am not going to do that. If you want Scriptural evidence, I have given enough to get you started (you won't be able to give a reasonable answer to those), and I have given you a resource with more than 400 pages of support. So if you really want to know, then start there.

 

I find it mighty strange that a Pastor would not provide proof from scripture but would instead refer to a human writer and then turn around and dismiss scholars and lexicons as irrelevant himself. ???????

 

Larry,

1)…Isa 9:6-7 – “For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; and the governmentt shall be on His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. There is no end of the increase of His government and peace on the throne of David, and on His kingdom, to order it and to establish it with judgment and with justice from now on, even forever.”

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• The Christ child was born. A "government" has a King. A King has a throne. Christ is the King.
  His kingdom rule shall perpetually increase and be unlimited and was fulfilled in Mat 2:2 - "Where is the One having been born King of the Jews?"</font>

2)…Psa 89:29 – “Also I have set his (Christ’s) seed forever, and his throne as the days of the heavens. “
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• This can apply only to the spiritual David - Chirst. The posterity of David are long since extinct. His rule is for an unlimited time, therefore spiritual – not a literal 1,000 years.</font>

3)… Zec 9:9 – “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem; behold, your King comes to you. He is righteous and victorious, meek and riding on an ass, even on a colt, the son of an ass.”
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• That this is a prophecy of the Messiah and his kingdom is plain from the literal accomplishment of its express application to, Christ's riding in triumph into Jerusalem,
  
  Fulfilled in Mat 21:5 – "Tell the daughter of Zion, Behold, your King comes to you, meek, and sitting on an ass, even a colt the foal of an ass."</font>

4)… Mat 3:1-2 "In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of Heaven is at hand."
</font>

• "The kingdom of heaven is at hand" refers to the prophecy of Daniel where the reign of Christ among men is expressly foretold.
  
  Fulfilled in Dan 7:13-14 - "I saw in the night visions, and behold, One like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of Days, and they brought Him near before Him. And dominion and glory was given Him, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations and languages, should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.”</font>

5)… Mat 5:10 – “Blessed are they who have been persecuted for righteousness sake! For theirs is the kingdom of Heaven.”
</font>

• "For theirs is the kingdom of heaven" - A spiritual kingdom as referred to by John the Baptist in Mat 3:2 in the Beatitudes and of which persecution is considered a blessing, not something to escape from by being raptured out of this world.</font>

6)… Mat 10:6-7 - "But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, proclaim, saying, “The kingdom of Heaven is at hand."
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• The kingdom of Heaven - Literally, the “reign” of heaven.</font>

7)… Luk 1:32-33 – "He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Highest. And the Lord God shall give Him the throne of His father David. And He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of His kingdom there shall be no end. "
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• God's promise to David was that there should “not fail” a man to sit on his throne, or that his throne should be perpetual. The promise was fulfilled by exalting Jesus to be a Prince and a Saviour, and the perpetual King of his people. (1Ki_2:4; 1Ki_8:25; 1Ki_9:5; 2Ch_6:16,)</font>

8)… Luk 17:20-21 - "And being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation. Nor shall they say, Lo here! or, behold, there! For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."
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• Having just been asked by the Pharisees "when" the kingdom of God would come, Jesus tells them that the kingdom of God is not visible (with observations). He then tells them that the kingdom of God is in their "midst" - or to paraphrase, "The kingdom of God is standing right in front of you but you cannot see it because you are spiritually blind."</font>

9)… Luk 22:29 – "And I appoint a kingdom to you, as My Father has appointed to Me,"
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• “And I appoint unto you a kingdom”,.... Not an earthly one, but a spiritual one, otherwise there would be 13 kingdoms!</font>

10)… Act 15:14 -16 - "Even as Simon has declared how God at the first visited the nations to take out of them a people for His name. And the words of the Prophets agree to this; as it is written, "After this I will return and will build again the tabernacle of David which has fallen down; and I will build again its ruins, and I will set it up,..."
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• Fulfilled in Luk 1:32 "He shall be great and shall be called the Son of the Highest. And the Lord God shall give Him the throne of His father David."
  
  "...to this agree the words of the prophets — generally; but those of Amos (Amo_9:11-12) are specified. The point of the passage lies in the predicted purpose of God, under the new economy, that “the heathen” or “Gentiles” should be “called by His name,” or have “His name called upon them.” By the “building again of the fallen tabernacle of David,” or restoring its decayed splendor, is meant that only and glorious recovery which it was to experience under David’s “son and Lord.” (JFB Commentary)</font>

 

At least i gave lip service
to the topic. I see others that don't even
know which topic they are in. Not that it
matters, thier are three active topics
and three actives subjects -- the topics and subjecs are the same three. But we have
the Dispy subject in the RAPTURE topic;
the a-mill subject in the Dispy topic;
and the Rapture subject in the a-mill topic.
IT is bound to get confusing

 

What pastor here did this? I have yet to see any pastor that I know in this thread do any of these things. Why would you make this up? Or is there a poster I don't know anything about?