Lazarus revived

[standingfirminChrist]

BobRyan,

How can the soul sleep if the soul leaves the body upon death?

1 Kings 17:21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
1 Kings 17:22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

I do not see a sleeping soul here.

 

[BobRyan]

The soul/spirit "returns to God who gave it" Eccl 12:8. This is true for all mankind.

Christ is the one that said "LAZARUS SLEEPS" He did not say "Just Lazarus' body sleeps".

The body without the spirit is dead. The soul returns to God who gave it - but is not "doing anything" until it is placed into a body. That is why the Bible continually describes the SAINTS THEMSELVES as sleeping.

1Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

"the DEAD in Christ" are the ones who ARISE and are those who sleep.

1Cor 15
48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

 

[Me4Him]

Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

These "souls" are very much alive and "well aware" of events going on in the earth.

"Why" should our souls be any "different" than their souls.

Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. (Sleep) Believest thou this?

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible symbols of souls "kept under the altar" in Rev 6 and the saints "all sitting in Abraham's lap" in Luke 16 are often brought up in this way.

They are symbols and parables - saints are not really being held under the altar in heaven nor are they all sitting in Abraham's lap.

John 11:
11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,

Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT”

Matt 27
52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

The saints were the ones WHO sleep and they HAD bodies that were raised. It does not say "many bodies that slept were raised" - it is not the body but the person that sleeps and the person that HAS a body and it is not simply "a body walking into the holy city" but THE PERSON.

1Cor 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
…
48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as We have borne the image of the earthy, We will also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; WE will not all sleep, but WE will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and WE will be Changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But When this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, Then will come about the saying that is written, "" DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

 

[BobRyan]

Activity that stops in death –

Texts that are not debated to be apocalyptic symbols nor are they debated as being parables.

Don't simply settle for what "might" be extended to show something about being dead - show also the explicit texts that have as their primary purpose: showing what thought and what activity occurs for a dead person.

Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that God is not the God of the dead.

Ps 115.17 praise to God - ceases at death

Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
18 but as for us, we will bless the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!

Ps30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 -

Is 38:18 there is no thanks or praise to god given by those that are dead.

Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.
19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;

Ps 6:5 they have no memory of God

Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?

Ps 146:4 they have no thought activity

Ps 146:2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,

Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity

Those are examples of texts that in context intend to deal directly with what activity is available to you (the person) while dead.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The Bible symbols of souls "kept under the altar" in Rev 6 and the saints "all sitting in Abraham's lap" in Luke 16 are often brought up in this way.

They are symbols and parables - saints are not really being held under the altar in heaven nor are they all sitting in Abraham's lap.

Saints killed during the trib were not "believers" in Jesus. Pre trib, else they would have been rapture, pre trib, the "lamb's marriage supper" is occuring "in heaven" during the trib, yet those killed during the trib are not at the "lamb's wedding" but "under the altar", the "WEDDING CELBRATION" they attend is in the "THIRD DAY" in "CANA". (MK)

Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT”

Matt 27[/b]
52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

The saints were the ones WHO sleep and they HAD bodies that were raised. It does not say "many bodies that slept were raised" - it is not the body but the person that sleeps and the person that HAS a body and it is not simply "a body walking into the holy city" but THE PERSON.

PRIOR, to Jesus's death/resurrection, the wages of sin had not been paid, Saints didn't not "go to heaven", but "Abraham bosom".

Jew understood the Body/soul to remain "in the grave" until "resurrected", ya see, "Jesus/church" was a mystery not revealed to them, their understanding of scripture OMITS the NT period and goes directly to the events and "Second coming" of the Messiah. (First resurrection)

The "Rich man/lazarus" were very much alive and aware of their previous life on earth, even their "families".

Lu 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Lu 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

After Jesus paid the wages of sin, Souls now go directly to heaven, souls no more "sleep in the dust" (grave) until resurrected.

How you ever consider, that since Jesus "resurrected" the OT saint, all their "Grave" are now "EMPTY", even "Joseph's Tomb"????

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
The Bible symbols of souls "kept under the altar" in Rev 6 and the saints "all sitting in Abraham's lap" in Luke 16 are often brought up in this way.

They are symbols and parables - saints are not really being held under the altar in heaven nor are they all sitting in Abraham's lap.

Originally posted by Me4Him:

Saints killed during the trib were not "believers" in Jesus.

Is that pure speculation?

As Matt 24 points out the gathering of the saints to Christ happens after "the great tribulation".

 

[BobRyan]

Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT”

Matt 27[/b]
52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;

53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.

The saints were the ones WHO sleep and they HAD bodies that were raised. It does not say "many bodies that slept were raised" - it is not the body but the person that sleeps and the person that HAS a body and it is not simply "a body walking into the holy city" but THE PERSON.

Me4Him
PRIOR, to Jesus's death/resurrection, the wages of sin had not been paid, Saints didn't not "go to heaven", but "Abraham bosom".

#1. Nobody was 'sitting in Abraham's lap" pre-cross. Luke 16 is a parable about Abraham being in charge of all the dead saints - a popular story among the Jews in that day.

#2. Elijah and Moses appeared to Christ in Matt 17 and the Bible says that Elijah was taken to heaven. No denying it.

How you ever consider, that since Jesus "resurrected" the OT saint, all their "Grave" are now "EMPTY", even "Joseph's Tomb"????

The Bible does not say that "all the OT saints were resurrected".

 

[BobRyan]

Luke 16 parable - Facts people DON't LIKE

Abraham in heaven is in charge of all the saints who have died. No change to this has ever been stated in scripture.

ALL the dead saints are IN ABRAHAM's lap

The "whole body" of the saint and of the wicked can STILL be SEEN as in the grave today and yet we see them "bodily" in heaven and hell in Luke 16.

The wicked CAN be placed in the SAME grave (same PLACE) with a righteous corpse yet they are not in "the same place" in Luke 16.

The wicked and Abraham seem to be able to speak to each other at will

The righteous behold the suffering of the wicked

WATER should have no effect on non-corporal beings

NO REAL Toungue or Fingers should be there for they can be SEEN to still BE in the grave, fingers, toungue etc

But such are the issues with the physical facts in a parable.

Matt 10 and 5 do not use parable form - but they do tell us that both body and soul suffer in hell.

Matt 10:28<<> "fear him who IS ABLE to DESTROY BOTH Body and SOUL in hell"

Matt 5 "IF your right eye makes you stumble tear it out and throw it from you for it is better for you that one of your parts should perish than for your whole body to be THROWN INTO HELL"

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:
The Bible symbols of souls "kept under the altar" in Rev 6 and the saints "all sitting in Abraham's lap" in Luke 16 are often brought up in this way.

They are symbols and parables - saints are not really being held under the altar in heaven nor are they all sitting in Abraham's lap.

Originally posted by Me4Him:

Saints killed during the trib were not "believers" in Jesus.

Is that pure speculation?

As Matt 24 points out the gathering of the saints to Christ happens after "the great tribulation". </font>[/QUOTE]Mr 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds,

I guess the only thing we need to look for then is the "SUN" going dark, then we can say,

"The rapture is here".

Your "theory" denies the "twinkling of an eye" rapture, and places both the "Day of Christ" (rapture) and "Day of the Lord", (above verses) at the same time.

The AC isn't revealed until "AFTER" the "day of Christ".

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: (pre trib rapture)

Where does Daniel's verse fit into your "outline"???