LCMS

Don,

The difference between what this Baptist said, and what John Gilmore said, is nothing more than semantics.
Of course. Calvinist and Arminian Baptists both use "accepted Christ". It enables them to paper over their differences and declare a false unity against the Lutherans and Reform.

In the Lutheran view, "receiving Christ" is something that happens to you, without anything on your part whatsoever. In other words, salvation is "thrust" upon you. The problem with this is, the natural conclusion is that salvation is thrust upon you, whether you want it or not.
Lutherans reject irresistable grace. We say the Holy Spirit makes unwilling men willing.

This is the further clarification of the fallacy. Not only is salvation thrust upon you, but you must walk into (or, in the case of infant baptism, have someone put you into) the water to receive the means. This is necessarily a direct contradiction of what John Gilmore said. By that I mean, how can John's answer be "nothing" when one must place themselves in the water in order to receive grace?
The person does not place himself in the water. A little child can do nothing. The minister, acting in the stead and by the command of Christ, places the person in the water.

The Baptist, on the other hand, fully understands that there is absolutely nothing--including walking into water--that will save you or impart grace unto you. The simple case of semantics here is the difference between "accept" and "receive". The Lutheran says salvation is received, the Baptist says salvation is accepted. The Lutheran says this constitutes a conscious act, while the Baptist says that stepping into water to receive grace is a conscious act.
There is no conscious act. I cannot of my own reason or strength believe in Christ Jesus my Lord or come to Him. Dead people cannot act.

The Lutheran view is that belief is imparted upon the infant during baptism. The imparting of grace is not mentioned in the Bible without first believing on Him who saved us through His sacrifice on the cross.
I agree although I would say the imparting of grace and faith occur at the same time. The view held by many Baptists, that children can be saved without faith, is not found in the Bible. In Lutheran baptism, the infant confesses his personnel faith in Christ before the water is applied. Since the infant is not able to articulate his faith, a sponsor speaks for the child.

[ May 03, 2004, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]

 

Baptism is simply an outward show of an inward change. Nothing more, nothing less.

Yes, the Bible tells us to be baptized. But unless the recipient is a born-again child of God when he goes into the water, when he comes out he will only be a wet sinner still bound for hell.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (ESV)

Salvation is through grace, and not from what we can or should do. We receive that faith from God, just as we receive salvation from God through faith in Jesus Christ. Baptism does not enter the equation.

I am not against baptism. On the contrary, I am a Southern Baptist minister and I whole-heartedly support believers' baptism. But not that of infants or unbelievers (just makes 'em wet, not saved).

In Christ,
Trotter

 

"Baptism is simply an outward show of an inward change. Nothing more, nothing less."
Scripture disagrees with you and speaks repeadedly of Baptismal regeneration.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (ESV)

Salvation is through grace, and not from what we can or should do. We receive that faith from God, just as we receive salvation from God through faith in Jesus Christ.
Exactly! I agree with you, we aren't saved by any decision for Christ or special prayer we have to pray, come forward at altar call, or anything we need to do. We are saved because the Holy Spirit brings the Gift of Faith. How does Baptism fit into the picture? Water and Word (Ephesians 5:25),(Romans 10:17).


As for "works" my Baptism as an infant was no more salvation by works then anyone who hears and believes because the Gospel was preached to them.

 

The Bible does not teach an outward sign of an inward grace. The Bible teaches us the joy of salvation comes after belief, confession, and baptism. ( Acts 8:30-39). The Eunoch went away joyous after his baptism. ( vs.39).He had previously believed,and confessed. However, he was not joyous until he arose from the watery grave.

Water baptism is a part of salvation just as Grace ( Acts 14:7), Faith ( Hebrews 11:6), Blood ( I Pet. 1:17-19), Repentance( Luke 13:3,5), Confession ( Mat. 10:32), Gospel ( Romans 1:16), Word ( James 1;18), Baptism ( Mark 16:16). Faithfulness ( Rev. 2:10).

The same Bible that teaches one of these things is essential; teaches all of them are.