John Gilmore
New Member
Don,
The difference between what this Baptist said, and what John Gilmore said, is nothing more than semantics.
Of course. Calvinist and Arminian Baptists both use "accepted Christ". It enables them to paper over their differences and declare a false unity against the Lutherans and Reform.
In the Lutheran view, "receiving Christ" is something that happens to you, without anything on your part whatsoever. In other words, salvation is "thrust" upon you. The problem with this is, the natural conclusion is that salvation is thrust upon you, whether you want it or not.
Lutherans reject irresistable grace. We say the Holy Spirit makes unwilling men willing.
This is the further clarification of the fallacy. Not only is salvation thrust upon you, but you must walk into (or, in the case of infant baptism, have someone put you into) the water to receive the means. This is necessarily a direct contradiction of what John Gilmore said. By that I mean, how can John's answer be "nothing" when one must place themselves in the water in order to receive grace?
The person does not place himself in the water. A little child can do nothing. The minister, acting in the stead and by the command of Christ, places the person in the water.
The Baptist, on the other hand, fully understands that there is absolutely nothing--including walking into water--that will save you or impart grace unto you. The simple case of semantics here is the difference between "accept" and "receive". The Lutheran says salvation is received, the Baptist says salvation is accepted. The Lutheran says this constitutes a conscious act, while the Baptist says that stepping into water to receive grace is a conscious act.
There is no conscious act. I cannot of my own reason or strength believe in Christ Jesus my Lord or come to Him. Dead people cannot act.
The Lutheran view is that belief is imparted upon the infant during baptism. The imparting of grace is not mentioned in the Bible without first believing on Him who saved us through His sacrifice on the cross.
I agree although I would say the imparting of grace and faith occur at the same time. The view held by many Baptists, that children can be saved without faith, is not found in the Bible. In Lutheran baptism, the infant confesses his personnel faith in Christ before the water is applied. Since the infant is not able to articulate his faith, a sponsor speaks for the child.
[ May 03, 2004, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]
The difference between what this Baptist said, and what John Gilmore said, is nothing more than semantics.
Of course. Calvinist and Arminian Baptists both use "accepted Christ". It enables them to paper over their differences and declare a false unity against the Lutherans and Reform.
In the Lutheran view, "receiving Christ" is something that happens to you, without anything on your part whatsoever. In other words, salvation is "thrust" upon you. The problem with this is, the natural conclusion is that salvation is thrust upon you, whether you want it or not.
Lutherans reject irresistable grace. We say the Holy Spirit makes unwilling men willing.
This is the further clarification of the fallacy. Not only is salvation thrust upon you, but you must walk into (or, in the case of infant baptism, have someone put you into) the water to receive the means. This is necessarily a direct contradiction of what John Gilmore said. By that I mean, how can John's answer be "nothing" when one must place themselves in the water in order to receive grace?
The person does not place himself in the water. A little child can do nothing. The minister, acting in the stead and by the command of Christ, places the person in the water.
The Baptist, on the other hand, fully understands that there is absolutely nothing--including walking into water--that will save you or impart grace unto you. The simple case of semantics here is the difference between "accept" and "receive". The Lutheran says salvation is received, the Baptist says salvation is accepted. The Lutheran says this constitutes a conscious act, while the Baptist says that stepping into water to receive grace is a conscious act.
There is no conscious act. I cannot of my own reason or strength believe in Christ Jesus my Lord or come to Him. Dead people cannot act.
The Lutheran view is that belief is imparted upon the infant during baptism. The imparting of grace is not mentioned in the Bible without first believing on Him who saved us through His sacrifice on the cross.
I agree although I would say the imparting of grace and faith occur at the same time. The view held by many Baptists, that children can be saved without faith, is not found in the Bible. In Lutheran baptism, the infant confesses his personnel faith in Christ before the water is applied. Since the infant is not able to articulate his faith, a sponsor speaks for the child.
[ May 03, 2004, 07:11 AM: Message edited by: John Gilmore ]
