LEAVING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

Very true Ray.

However the RCC does not JUST reserve the tortures and torments of purgatory for their own members - they have it awaiting every non-Catholic as well - if that non-Catholic will be going to heaven some day.

Basically the fabrication of the entire system of indulgences was put in place as a means to get out of the torments of Purgatory - also fabricated by the RC magesterium.

"Sadly" in the RC view - non-Catholics do not "earn any indulgences" in this life NOR do they have "last rights" said over them - which means - we get "max time" as compared to our RC counterpart guilty of the same so-called "Venial sins".

We will have the "joy" of "atoning for our own sins" just as the RC members are taught THEY must do in purgatory - when it comes to "venial sins".

Now the "slight of hand" that will be practiced in the RC responses to these devastating points - is that IF you happened to have "suffered in this life equal to or MORE than what you OWE in terms of torment for venial sins you committed" then you can "skip purgatory" and go on to heaven.

Of course - as the RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post vatican II states "That is highly unlikely" most people that are going to heaven - will in fact go to Purgatory first.

At least in the fairytale myths that the RC magesterium cooks up for its membership.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob, with all your vast scholarship on Catholicism how can you be so ignorant as to believe that RCCs think purgatory is a place of torture and torment. Even I know that, and I don't have half your brains. Maybe you know it too but just think it's more fun to spread slander than truth.

 

Nice post.

I like seeing the "substance" in the points raised by Mayberry and also value testimony that you give in having been part of that same system and finding your way to the real presence of Christ - as "The Word that became Flesh" and not simply "the flesh that you ate at church in the form of bread".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Ever notice how all Catholic posts never have any value and all anti-Catholic posts have clarity and value? That is truly amazing.

Notice how Bob cares nothing about limbo being spoken of as a church teaching on the other post. All's fair, right Bob?

 

It is kind of surprising how that could slip by him, as he presents himself as a leading expert in the nuances of obscure catholic doctrines and practices.

 

ahh "the details" still being "ignored" by our faithful RC bretheren.

As expected.

In Christ,

Bob

 

RBrent - some good "punishment" and "torment" findings.

Here are some other Catholic Sources that may also interest you.

The Catechism states

1031: "The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent"

The Catechism states

The Revised and Updated Edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia explains:

Catholic Encyclopedia. Refers to Purgatory as

</font>[/QUOTE]The Faith Explained
Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II

Of course this assume the souls are in fact still suffering - for if they have already gone to heaven - it would not benefit them at all - and thus we have "time".

The Faith Explained:. Page 177

In Christ,

Bob

 

Punishment and pain are not torment and torture if the person experiencing the punishment willingly submits. Aaaaaah, the details being ignored again, in favor of the sensationalistic ignorant nonsense.

 

For those still "turning a blind eye to the details" - the entire system of "indulgences" is created to get your loved ones "OUT" of the torture and torments of purgatory (though to some here they seem to value a long stay there - so I don't mean that indulgences could be earned "for them").

In fact the RCC makes it a point to note that a truly loving relative son or daughter would "of course" do all in their power to earn indulgences and get their loved ones out asap.

But then of course we have the looking-at-sand approach of some non-Catholics even who will try to wrangle something-good out of "torment" "fire" and "punishment" that EVEN our RC bretheren work to avoid.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Aaaah, Bob! Another long post full of quotes and distortions. Too bad you don't spend as much time in the bible or dictionary as you do in the catechism!

 

Hey Harley,

Let's lets the major players in this thread iron out the evidence that they've provided. Meanwhile back at the ranch, we can bathe in the promises that we DO have and know to be true.

Having not been taught this strange doctrine as a child, I find it interesting to read about the pro and con issues of it, but we should know and our spirit tells us that we can either cruise down the backroads on our Harleys or canter our horse down the dusty cowtrails of Nebraska and still be in the good graces of God.

God does not ask us to digest complex undocumented input from every source that hopes to divert us to their way of thinking in the world of religion.

Spirituality is of course a spirit thing and not derived through even church attendance. The firmament gives proof of God. As I look out at deep snow this morning and see icicles hanging from my roof, smoke from the chimney, snow clinging to the trees, my woodpile, smelling Folgers coffee and hearing my pretty wife stirring around in the kitchen.........I know I've been blessed, and I know God exists.

I also know from the spirit that He has given me that Jesus Christ forgave sins to "whosoever believes in Me". It doesn't get any more complex than that, Harley and it doesn't get any better than that either.

Nothing is lacking in the gospel story........

We either believe or we do not; and to those who believe, they receive the spirit and are promised eternal life.

Let simplicity reign, Harley, let your hair flow in the breeze and "Be silent and know that I am God".....so he says!

They can't take that away from us.

Singer

 

P.S.

Harley, I'm assuming you have hair.



Singer

 

I was riding home on the bus one evening from work. There were two blind folks sitting across from each other and talking, as they always did on the ride home. They had become very good friends, which I think is awesome. Since I was right next to them I couldn't help but to hear their conversation. One of them, an older lady had an interesting story to share.

She had mentioned that she had been invited to a local fundamental Baptist church (I wish now I had asked which one, and you'll see why). She had been going for several months when the wife of a deacon called her at home. She said that they were collecting donations to buy the pastor and his wife a nice gift for the pastors birthday. The woman said she had to decline to help since she could barely afford to feed herself. The deacons wife insisted though that she give a 100 dollar donation like everyone else. Again she explained to her that she couldn't, on which the deacons wife told her if she didn't find it in her heart to give 100 dollars she would burn in hell.

She told her friend that after that she stopped attending that church.


The moral of the story is that there is corruption in any church or group. The Catholic Church is probably more in the stoplight than other churches so the corruption seems to be very prominant, moreso than it may be. None-the-less, the Catholic Church has a great deal of cleaning up to do.

 

Purgatory is not at all complex. It is only being made so here. I've accurately explained it to someone who had no idea what it meant in about 2 minutes. After that two minutes, they understood completely what we taught.

 

This reminds me of Algebra.....our freshman year of highschool teacher told a classmate who had made the comment "I just don't understand it Mr. Jones"........Mr Jones said "It isn't something to understand, George, it's just something to do" Purgatory seems that way to me. It's not necessary or even proven and once a person dies, it's only speculation to think that prayers could do them any good. Why not just accept that we're heavenbound on the laurels of the promises of God.

"Whosoever believes in me shall never die".

Do you believe?

A "Yes" answer assures eternal life.
A "No" answer does not.

What's the big problem?

Singer

 

Well, since salvation is based on my relationship with Christ, rather my opinions of religious denominations, I'm pretty sure I'm saved.

 

Well, since salvation is based on my relationship with Christ, rather my opinions of religious denominations, I'm pretty sure I'm saved. </font>[/QUOTE]Johnv......that's exactly how I consider my own salvation. It is not based on my opinions OR my understanding of the Catholic, SDA, etc churches or even if I have a church. God is not confined to an institution or a church. He's as much available to someone sitting on a stump in their backyard as He is in a building while being a member.