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Left Behind

Kiffin

New Member
The quotation by Grant Jeffrey has been shown by many Bible Scholars to be a fake.

Ed Tarkowski states,

"For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (Pseudo-Ephraem).

I do not believe in reinventing the wheel (though I sometimes do [said with a smile], but I can find no better documentation that refutes the idea of pretrib rapture in the above quote from Pseudo-Ephraem than that which is written at Pseudo-Pseudo-Ephraem: Grant Jeffrey II, the Sequel! By Tim Warner. At first appearance the above quote appears to emphatically point to support a Pretribulation rapture by Pseudo-Ephraem, which was written sometime around 373 AD. However, the date itself is speculative and scholars are unsure of when this document was written, dating it anywhere from 374 and 627 AD. There is a lot of unsureness of the document and its author, making it a poor measure of truth concerning the second coming of Christ. Warner states,

The quotation Jeffrey referred to is from a document called "Pseudo-Ephraem." The prefix "pseudo—" means "false" or "falsely ascribed to—." Scholars doubt this document is genuinely from the hand of Ephraem of Syria, or that it was written in the fourth century. It was most likely written much later by an anonymous author, who falsely ascribed it to Ephraem the Syrian. So, when Jeffrey wrote "I believe Ephraem the Syrian's A.D. 373 manuscript, On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World...", he has already mis-represented his evidence, and demonstrated the same kind of "spin" that is evident in his other claims. This sermon was neither written by Ephraem the Syrian nor was it written in A.D. 373! And Jeffrey knows this! Ephraem's genuine writings, contained in the Post-Nicene Fathers collection, display no hint of pre-tribulationism."

A total Refutation of Grant's misrepresentation and twisting of this document can be found at http://www.geocities.com/~lasttrumpet/ephraem1.html
 

Baptist Believer

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by JonathanG:
From TRIUMPHANT RETURN
by Grant R. Jeffrey



Since Christ does not mention the Church to His disciples in this conversation, the plain interpretation is that Israel is the primary focus of the Prophecy of Matthew 24. Matthew 24 speaks of the Great Tribulation, and beginning at verse 15, Christ states that the Antichrist will set up the "abomination of desolation" (a supernatural statue of the Antichrist) to be worshiped in the Temple. In verses 40 and 41, Jesus says, "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left." A vital question for students of the Bible is the identity of these people who "shall be taken." Does this prophecy refer to the Church or does it reveal God's plans for the Tribulation saints who become believers after the Rapture?



This gathering of the "elect" Tribulation saints will occur at the conclusion of three and one-half years --- a period of time for which there are the most detailed prophecies found in the Bible.

The Bible describes many Tribulation events that must occur prior to the "gathering" of the Tribulation saints and thus, it cannot be correctly described as "imminent." These facts have caused many scholars to believe that this "gathering" is, therefore, a different event than the "Rapture" of the Church. However, when we turn our attention to the coming of Christ for His Church, we find that there are no warnings or signals given to indicate the time of the Rapture. The Rapture can literally occur at any time.


Sorry about the long quote, but I wanted to be sure that I quoted Jeffrey in context.

The fact that he completely misunderstands that those “taken” in Matthew 24 are the wicked and those who are “left” are the righteous (just like the flood of Noah which is the context for the passage in Matthew 24) undermines his entire argument.

Matthew 24 cannot refer to the gathering of the tribulation saints since Matthew 24 is talking about the removal of the wicked.

He has it completely backwards. :rolleyes: :(
 

Daniel David

New Member
As many know, I am pretrib and find men like Grant Jefferies embarrassing. He is only slightly worse than LaHaye. :mad:

I only say this so that people don't think that these charlatans represent us all.
 

Baptist Believer

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by PreachtheWord:
As many know, I am pretrib and find men like Grant Jefferies embarrassing. He is only slightly worse than LaHaye. :mad:

I only say this so that people don't think that these charlatans represent us all.
I understand and sympathize... I often find that people who support my general position often don't have their facts straight or they're playing an angle for their own benefit.

Certainly the pre-trib position cannot be judged on the merits of Jeffrey's character or scholarship, but on what the Bible actually teaches.

Of course, that's the reason I reject the pre-trib position.
 

Baptist Believer

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by PreachtheWord:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
Of course, that's the reason I reject the pre-trib position.
Of course it is... :rolleyes:
</font>[/QUOTE]It is, even if you don't believe it...

The main reason I can't accept the pre-trib position is that I can't find a secret rapture in the scripture. Show me a secret rapture and I'll reexamine the pre-trib position.
 

JonathanG

New Member
Jo 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Jo 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have
told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jo 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you
unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even
Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which
are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also
which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which
are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the
voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together
with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,

Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in
glory.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication,
uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be
changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet
shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on
immortality.
 

Daniel David

New Member
JonathanG, I think you will find most people to believe that the lord will return and believers will be changed.

I am pretrib. Others believe that the Lord comes at the end of the tribulation. They do not deny verses, just misinterpret them.
 

BrianT

New Member
Originally posted by JonathanG:
Jo 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Jo 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have
told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Jo 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you
unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Neither timing relative to the trib, nor being taken to heaven, is mentioned. This passage would still be true if it happened after the trib.

1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even
Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
This does not say that the trib is the "wrath to come", instead of God's final destruction of the unrighteous when he returns after the trib. This passage would still be true if it happened after the trib.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which
are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also
which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which
are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the
voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together
with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Neither timing relative to the trib, nor being taken to heaven, is mentioned. This passage would still be true if it happened after the trib.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,
and by our gathering together unto him,
Neither timing relative to the trib, nor being taken to heaven, is mentioned. This passage would still be true if it happened after the trib.

Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in
glory.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication,
uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Neither timing relative to the trib, nor being taken to heaven, is mentioned. This passage would still be true if it happened after the trib.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be
changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet
shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on
immortality.
Neither timing relative to the trib, nor being taken to heaven, is mentioned. This passage would still be true if it happened after the trib.
 

JonathanG

New Member
Going over other post on this board under topic of Rapture I see that the topic is a dog chasing its tail. The pretrib group posting all their points and interpretation of the bible and the post tribs doing the same. Its just a rehashing of the samethings that have been posted before on different areas of this board.

The topic was LEFT BEHIND the series

I enjoyed it, it was a fiction series. some like it some don't thats why they make vanilla and chocolate.

I also enjoyed ESCAPE THE COMING NIGHT by David Jeremiah.

May God Bless

Jon
 
P

prewrathterp

Guest
Jesus promised, "I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Revelation 3:10).
If this verse is a promise to the church that is on earth when the rapture occurs and it is used as a prooftext for a pretrib rapture shouldn't we see some sort of historical evidence that the church in Philidephia was raptured from there "hour of temptation". Afterall this letter was written without dispute to this early church. In other words if they weren't raptured then why use this verse to support any type of rapture, pre/mid/post of whatever?

Prewrathterp
 
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