Legalism? in the Church

[aefting]

Don't need a rule "against" man-made rules. We already have the actions of our Lord that makes such of no effect.

So, what you're saying is that you are applying a principle to create your man-made rule because there is certainly no chapter and verse that says a pastor can't preach against smoking (for example).

What I want to know is why is it legalism to apply a Biblical principle to condemn smoking but not legalism for you to apply a Biblical principle against your list of so-called man-made rules?

Andy

 

[Craigbythesea]

The Bible does not say that it is a sin the celebrate Halloween during the communion service, so I suppose that a rule against doing so would be legalism. Did God make all of so banefully incompetent that it is necessary for Him to spell out everything that we should or should not do? And what did James mean when he says that faith without works is dead? Is grace no more than the kindness of God? Is faith nothing but intellection consent? Is repentance nothing more that feeling guilty after being caught in sin? Does not the pastor have the right to pastor the sheep?

 

[freeatlast]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob Griffin:
We have very few rules, actually, from the NT. We could compile a list of "do's and don'ts" from the Bible with ease.

BUT THESE ARE NOT! No smoking, attending prayer meeting, bus calling, no slacks, no movies, no cards, no dancing, no chew, no cholesterol, no other bible than a kjv, no . . .

These are some of the hundreds of man-made rules that comprise legalism, the scourge of the church today.

Bob,
when you listed no chew it brought back some memory of discussion with a much older saint who discribed the church 70 to 100 years ago. In this part of the country TX he told me that some men would come to church with a chew and set near the open window and spit out the window all during the preaching service.

 

[wopik]

God hates iniquity, lawlessness. We have to live a righteous life before God, and that means keeping the commandments the best we can.

NOT stealing isn't that difficult.
NOT killing isn't that difficult.
NOT worshiping other Gods isn't that difficult.
NOT taking God's name in vain isn't that difficult.
etc, etc,..................

So why all the gnashing of teeth when it comes to commandment keeping ?

The Lord Jesus, who gave the Commandments at Mt Sinai, wants those same Commandments kept by His servants (Matt 19: 16-21 / Jn 14: 15).

Paul agrees with JESUS (1 Cor. 7:18-19).

 

[Helen]

The trouble with legalism is that it tries to replace the character of Christ in a person. A born again Christian wants to please our Lord and does not want to sin against Him.

Those who are not born again but are church-going will always try to imitate a Christian character via the law.

Christ fulfilled the law. We don't need to worry about it as 'law.' It still exists, but in our desire that Christ should express Himself in our lives -- our actions, words and thoughts -- via the indwelling Holy Spirit, we find that obedience to the law is a byproduct of obedience to the direction of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

If people differ about something, they should pray. The Holy Spirit will not lead in different directions!

As for things such as smoking -- what Christian in their right mind would want to endanger the health of others by smoking around them? We know that tobacco products are damaging -- so smoking in church would be more in the line of hating one's fellow man rather then caring for them.

Remember that Jesus said that ALL the law and prophets hang on the two commandments to love: God and one's neighbor. John states clearly in his first letter that if one hates his brother, one cannot be loving God. Thus, caring for others and operating to their benefit, as a Christian, is part and parcel of loving God.

Thus, again, those churches or individuals who are promoting law following over submission to Christ on a personal level are only trying to imitate what only Christ can really do in a life. Christians WANT to please Christ and, slowly but surely, we do experience the character adjustments (made by Him) which cause us to not only want to represent Him well here on earth, but enable us to do that. At that point, His laws are being followed just fine.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Helen,

Thank you for this excellent post!

 

[Dr. Bob]

Yet Jesus told His disciples to obey the rules of the Pharisees because they were the spiritual leaders of the day. He never condemned the rules.

Yes, Jesus even MOCKED them, especially the man-made legalism of ceremonial washings. Or eating as they walked through a wheatfield.

Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. (For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brazen vessels, and of tables.)

Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Teaching the commandment of men as "doctrine" is a good definition of LEGALISM.

Dr. Bob "for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain"

 

[PastorGreg]

Agreed, Dr. Bob. My point is just that the problem is not rules themselves - they are necesary for the functioning of a family, church, society, any organization. Rules are not bad. The problem comes when I define godliness by my rules.

 

[aefting]

Teaching the commandment of men as "doctrine" is a good definition of LEGALISM.

If it is, then you would be a legalist by your own definition, given the fact that you have created your own man-made rules in this very thread.

The problem with the Pharasees was not their man-made rules exclusively. The problem, as it says in Mark 7 was that their man-made rules made the Word of God of none effect. They had other problems as well, but I fear that in our zeal to do away with "legalism" and "commandments of men" that we are also in danger of making the Word of God of none effect by the prohibition of applying Biblical principles (i.e., so called man-made rules) to modern day issues.

Andy

 

[gb93433]

Some people are unable to think and allow the Holy Spirit to reign in their life so they must get the help of a legalist to guide them.

 

[Marcia]

We should do away with legalism because it contradicts following the commandments. To honor Christ's "top 2" commandments -- to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind, and to love our neighbor as yourself - is to follow the commandments and cannot be forced.

But to have rules imposed in order to make us please God is not following the commandments because then we are being forced into it. That is not really following the commandments - it is legalism. We cannot be forced to love God or to love our neighbor, and forced to show the external actions only without the inner willingness is hypocritical. This is the kind of thing that makes people flee the church.

So I am saying legalism is actually contrary to following God's commands, which should be voluntary and can only be done with the help of the Holy Spirit as part of sanctification. My pastor often says that we cannot live for Christ, we let Christ live in and through us.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by gb93433:
Some people are unable to think and allow the Holy Spirit to reign in their life so they must get the help of a legalist to guide them.

I have a relative who is very legalistic (he would claim they are all good standards, of course). He states that the parallel is building a house.

You lay a foundation and then, to help build the walls straight, etc, you erect scaffolding. These help keep the walls straight and true during the formative process.

So he would take a new believer and give him "scaffold" - list of do's and don'ts and proper conduct, etc - until that person can mature and make the "right" choices for himself.

Such is insidious legalism in the guise of mentoring or discipling a new believer.

 

[Craigbythesea]

So he would take a new believer and give him "scaffold" - list of do's and don'ts and proper conduct, etc - until that person can mature and make the "right" choices for himself.

Good thinking! Most converts don't have time to read and study the whole Bible before they walk out of the church on the day that they get saved

. Handing them such a "scaffold" might just help them to stay out of trouble until they have time to read and study the whole Bible.

 

[Dr. Bob]

OH, NO! Another one!!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> So he would take a new believer and give him "scaffold" - list of do's and don'ts and proper conduct, etc - until that person can mature and make the "right" choices for himself.

Good thinking! Most converts don't have time to read and study the whole Bible before they walk out of the church on the day that they get saved

. Handing them such a "scaffold" might just help them to stay out of trouble until they have time to read and study the whole Bible.

</font>[/QUOTE]Isn't that what you call discipleship?

2 Timothy 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
DHK

 

[Craigbythesea]

Isn't that what you call discipleship?

Yes it is, but some people, as you can see in this thread, believe that it is legalism . I visited a church like that once. The teenagers all sat in the back pews mocking the pastor while he was preaching. Between all that noise, and the babies wailing and some of the men snoring, I missed much of the sermon. I think that the pastor was preaching on the liberty that we have in Christ, but I couldn’t be sure .

After the service was over, three different women came over to me and asked me if I needed some company for the night. Out in the parking lot, a Sunday school teacher tried to sell me some “reds” and told me that they would help me concentrate better on the pastor’s sermon next Sunday. Some of the kids overheard the conversation and told me that I would be better off smoking some joints. It was then that I realized what that smell was in the church!

When I walked over to my car, I saw that some kids in the youth group had broken into my car, hot-wired it, and were about to drive off. I yelled at them to get out of my car, and I heard more four letter words coming from their mouths than could fit into a 24 volume dictionary of English profanity.

When I finally got home, my dog put his front paws up on my chest and licked my face

. I don’t care much for dog germs , but I sure am thankful that my dog is a born-again Christian and that it shows in his life! And don’t you dare call my dog a legalist! You don’t know my dog—and you don’t know what is in his heart! Shame, shame on you!!

Anyway, we need to pray for them—that they will get their head screwed on straight.

 

[DHK]

At least you know your dog loves you.

I have visited many churches, and I don't recall coming across one that bad. I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience.

Actually I think that the whole discussion concerning legalism is quite misconstrued. People say or accuse us of being legalistic when we preach about standards: whether they be dress standards, or otherwise. We can't force the people in our church (like the Church of Christ does) to adhere to certain standards, but we preach them from the pulpit. The decision must be from the heart. A good example would be music. We don't sing CCM in our church, and would not have any one bring a special with music in that genre. But if an individual does not have that conviction in his heart he will still listen to it at home. There are standards at the church. There has to be. You expect your pastor to wear a shirt and tie, (and probably the entire suit as well).
The Bible sets forth standards for pastors and deacons. Do we follow them? It is not legalism to be Godly. For a woman to dress modestly, avoiding jeans, and wearing dresses instead, is not legalistic, but Godly living. And the Bible says that it is the duty of the older women to teach the younger women.
Legalistic or Godliness? It is all in your attitude. If you are conforming because you have to do it, and all the while complaining about it, then, yes it will seem to be legalistic to you.
However if the standards set in your church are indeed Godly standards, then perhaps there is something wrong with the heart if I am unwilling to conform or "sacrifice" (that dreaded word). How willing am I to be holy and godly--living as close as possible to the Lord Jesus Christ, instead of walking as closely as possible to the world and maintain a Christian testimony at the same time.
DHK

 

[HankD]

Good thinking! Most converts don't have time to read and study the whole Bible before they walk out of the church on the day that they get saved . Handing them such a "scaffold" might just help them to stay out of trouble until they have time to read and study the whole Bible.

I was saved reading through the Bible and listening to a Wheeling WV religious station while in the Air Force. I went back to the Church of my biological birth, the Church of Rome but I kept reading my Bible.

After two years I left the Church of Rome. By then I had quit smoking, drunkenness, cursing, carousing, fighting, etc… No one made any rules for me. These things were just not me anymore. It was the Spirit of Christ in my life.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

This is not to say that everyone elses encounter with Christ is invalid. We are all different and He deals with each of us one-on-one.

HankD

 

[onestand]

Wow, out of the mouth of true legalists. No, true Godly living isn't dressing the way a pastor commands but as God would lay on your heart to do so. I expect my pastor to wear whatever he feels most comfortable in while ministering to others for hours on end through the day or night, it's not a fashion show, it's a ministering time and nothing he wears is immodest in any way, he's covered.

Disciplship is hardly giving a new believer a list of do's and don'ts, those are your personal standards and is without a doubt forcing your convictions on another. I think it's sad how so many consider such personal situations the basic rule of thumb for Godly standards, people really miss the point of Christian living. I have yet to see any valid scriptures to say women should not wear jeans, should only be in dresses blah blah...modest, of course and you can be just that in a nice pair of jeans.....*sigh* how far we get from what's real.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by onestand:
how far we get from what's real.

How far we get from holy living.