Legalism? in the Church

[Craigbythesea]

What are all these Corinthians ( ) doing on a Baptist message board?

No, I am not speaking of DHK

 

[Helen]

Discipling someone is NOT giving them a list of do's and don't's!!! It is walking with them for a ways, praying with them, listening to them, maybe doing Bible READINGS with them. It is encouraging them to praise and love the Lord and to listen to HIM, not the rest of us where his lifestyle is conceerned. And when the person begins to feel uncomfortable about this or that behavior or way of dress, it is reassuring them the Lord and you love them and they will see more and more changes as the Lord takes over their life and prunes this or that away. They should not be afraid of the change, but they should not think that change will make a difference in the love either their Christian siblings or the Lord has for them. We are in process! All of us.

One of the joys of being older in the faith is being able to, when times are rough, look back on the years the Lord has worked with us and know that we can count on Him now, too. A new believer does not have those years, and so they need to 'ride on the coattails' of older believers until they have a little time behind them -- then they, in their turns, will be able to turn around to those newer in the faith and encourage and love, them, too.

This is discipleship. It is NOT teaching rules; it is living love. It is caring and encouraging withough trying to get between the Lord and the younger believer.

 

[superdave]

Isn't that what you call discipleship?

Unfortunately, this is what many Baptist Churches call Discipleship, when nothing could be further from the truth.

Discipleship has very little to do with telling someone what dress is proper, or what music they should be embracing, or how they shouldn't be goin to the show on Saturday night.

When you disciple someone, you teach them how to study the Bible, and you walk them through the basics of doctrine, and you go though the Biblical philosophy of your church and help them get prepared to learn deeper truth on their own, you don't give them a list of do's and don'ts, or even shoulds and shouldn'ts. When you disciple someone properly these issues will come up, for sure, and you get great chances to guide them to make better decisions, but not by you ramming something down their throat, but by them going to the scriptures and actually learning new truth from that source, not just the spoonfeeding of a more "mature" christian.

The main problem is, people who don't bother to teach new believers (and this applies to children too!) how to study and apply scripture for themselves, and so you end up with people who are fine, as long as they are within the boundaries you have created for them, but when they come into a new situation, many times have no idea how to even evaluate it, or their response in a Biblical way, because they only know, "well, I'm not supposed to do ..." Many well meaning people are more that happy to impart their own standards on others, but either choose not to, or are not mature enough themselves to teach someone how to develop Biblical standards for themselves, and how to apply Biblical principles in decision making. Thats fine if you want that person to still be coming to you and asking for the bottle when they should be eating steak, but it is a poor way to develop true disciples of Christ, and when their "role model" fails or stumbles, many of them fall away or become bitter, because their dependence is on other christians, not on God and the Bible.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by superdave:
When you disciple someone properly these issues will come up, for sure, and you get great chances to guide them to make better decisions, but not by you ramming something down their throat, but by them going to the scriptures and actually learning new truth from that source, not just the spoonfeeding of a more "mature" christian.

No one said anything about ramming things down peoples' throats. That's an unfair and stereotyped generalization. I preach the Word of God--the whole counsel of God's Word. I don't shy away from issues even if they do step on people's toes. I know of a new evangelical Baptist preacher who was afraid of preaching against any kind of "social sin," lest he lose his "job." He feared that the deacons would dismiss him, which they eventually did any way.
The church must have standards. I am not talking of the new believer here, I am speaking of the church. The new believer grows in grace, as he is discipled, and usually comes under conviction on his own that his old lifestyle is wrong and needs to change.
I appreciated Hank's testimony in this respect. Christ changed his heart. The Holy Spirit convicted him of sin. He changed.
A person sitting under the preaching of the Word of God ought to change his life, simply by the convincton of the Holy Spirit through the Word.

If there is no change in a person's life after he has "trusted" Christ as his Saviour, then I doubt that he has really been saved.

1 John 2:3-4 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
DHK

 

[superdave]

If there is no change in a person's life after he has "trusted" Christ as his Saviour, then I doubt that he has really been saved.

Very True, but focusing on teaching standards to new believers may produce someone who exhibits change, that is really not the goal.

The immediate change in someones life should be in their attitude towards God and His Word. It is obvious most of the time, I am not impressed by someone who simply complies with the guidance of those who "disciple" them. There are many people in churches today who may have a form of Godliness, but deny the power of it. IITim 3:5

In The Message it reads like this:
(2Ti 3:5) " They'll make a show of religion, but behind the scenes they're animals. Stay clear of these people."

My point was that by teaching someone the Word, and by teaching them to study and apply it, they will be led by the Holy Spirit to make changes. Many people are led astray into a system of Works clothed in the guise of good standards, or they cannot develop their own standards and have to be spoon fed what to think about every area of the christian life.

Its a generalization, not every person who holds to high standards approaches descipleship in this way, but it's not uncommon.

I have no problem with preaching the whole council of God. My church has strong Biblical standards, but the key is Biblical standards. If it cannot be strongly supported by the Word of God, than it is not taught as "truth" but as opinion. My pastor has no problem telling you what he thinks about an issue, but he also is careful to spell out exactly what the Biblical truth or principles are that surround the issue, and to teach dogmatically only to the point. Our church is absolutely Word Centered, no man created, man glorifying teaching needs to be a part of our philosophy or standards, after all, the Bible is all we need for Life and Godliness right?

 

[onestand]

Helen and Superdave,

DITTO DITTO DITTO to what you both said.

I've seen families change their standards each time a new pastor came along and preached his personal standards as gospel truth.

Also, focusing on the do's and don'ts can often times discourage a new believer and overwhelm them causing them to feel they won't measure up to what God wants instead of allowing God to change any unhealthy or sinful areas along the way.

How much of a need we have in knowing the difference between "holy living" and personal convictions.