Legalism

[Helen]

Larry, when I was mentioning adding clothes, I sort of had in mind over a bathing suit or 'hot pants' or such. But to follow through with what you asked me, no I would not wear a burkha simply because that is a sign of the Islam religion and I am not Islamic. However I would try very hard to make sure that nothing I did wear offended them, regardless of the meaning of 'offend' biblically! I might be the closest thing they have to a witness about Jesus Christ, and I would not want to blow it by exercising my clothing liberties in a way that would 'turn them off', if that is a better term.

So, yes, if I thought that wearing long skirts to do my yard work would cause them to feel more relaxed and open around me you bet your booties that is exactly what I would do.

And this coming from a lady who wears jeans and t-shirts like a uniform!

 

[PASTOR MHG]

For your information I do believe that the standard should be applied to men as well. That is how we apply it in our family, and that is why I cited this as an example.

Max

 

[Johnv]

Just alittle bit off the topic.

Helen, if you dine with a vegeterian, would you refrain from eaing meat in their presence because it might offend them? It's not an accusatory or arguementative question. I'm simply curious.

 

[Petrel]

Well, I guess you could wear a long skirt, a long-sleeved shirt, and a bag over your head!

Trouble is there are all sorts of other liberties you might exercise that would annoy them, like driving a car, going grocery shopping alone, talking to the mailman. . . You have to draw the line somewhere.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by PASTOR MHG:
For your information I do believe that the standard should be applied to men as well.

Then a man who is not wearing a shirt scripturally qualifies as naked?

 

[RightFromWrong]

I have heard of pastors preaching drinking any kind of alcohol was wrong even cooking wine in a meal. Personally I can't stand wine, never have never will.

What does the Bible say about this topic ?

 

[Helen]

Wine and beer are recommended medicinally, accepted otherwise, and we are warned not to get drunk. That's about the jist of it.

 

[Helen]

John, we have some very close friends who are 7th Day Adventists and refuse meat at all. We were at breakfast with them one morning and I ordered a poached egg on an English muffin. The lady, whom I love greatly, was horrified. I will never do that again when I am out with them.

So the answer is yes, I refrain from eating meat when I know it will offend someone I am with. Often those who are vegetarian have no qualms about others eating meat, but when I know it bothers someone, I will cook vegetarian when they are at our house, eat vegetarian at theirs and order vegetarian when we are out together. I see absolutely no reason to alienate people over something like that.

Petrel, When Muslims move to America, they know that they are going to be seeing a cultural norm different from what they are used to. Still, I will do what I can not to offend them if they are neighbors. However, I think being open and friendly to people like the mailman would be a witness to freedom in Christ and appreciation of people as His creatures. Mostly your post is mockery, but I thought I would respond to that part of it anyway. As for the rest, I plead Psalm 1:1 and Proberbs 9:7-8.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Helen:
Wine and beer are recommended medicinally, accepted otherwise, and we are warned not to get drunk. That's about the jist of it.

Here we agree. Consumption of alcohol is not forbidden in scripture. However, we're expressly forbidden from getting drunk. Medicinally, the use of alcohol is encouraged.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Helen:
... the answer is yes, I refrain from eating meat when I know it will offend someone I am with...

I am very glad to hear this. I have some hindu family members, and when they have come over, I fix vegeterian cuisine. They find meat in their presence offensive. The only time I've ever eaten mean in their presence was at my wedding. I talked with them beforehand to let them know it would be present, and they were appreciative that I let them know.

... When Muslims move to America, they know that they are going to be seeing a cultural norm different from what they are used to. Still, I will do what I can not to offend them if they are neighbors....

Prior to moving earlier this year, I had a Muslims family as neighbors. When I visited them for dinner, or when they came over, I respected and observed their customs.

Perhaps we've started out on the wrong foot here. Indeed, if it offends the average person, I will refrain from it, out of respect. But if it does not, and it is not offensive to me, I will not refrain.

Attending a service on the beach in Maui in beach attire was not considered offensive to them, nor was it to me. If someone there was likely to be offended, I would have worn more. If my wife found it offensive, I would have covered up. If she thought the whole thing offensive, we would have gone to church elsewhere. But the style of dress was not offensive to me, the Mrs, or the congregation.

In any event, I have no scriptural authority to tell someone else what to do if something someone else does offends them. I only have scriptural authority to change my behavior if someone finds my actions offensive. In the aforementioned, no one did.

(Again, we're talking about offensive by scriptural definition, not offensive in the personal definition).

 

[PASTOR MHG]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by PASTOR MHG:
For your information I do believe that the standard should be applied to men as well.

Then a man who is not wearing a shirt scripturally qualifies as naked? </font>[/QUOTE]According to scripture...absolutely!

 

[RightFromWrong]

PASTOR MHG The verse you used to say that the chest of a man should be clothed said not one word about the chest area. GIRDED or GIRDING is refering to picking up the long robe they wore and tucking it in their belt. Please explain where you got that from ?

You will NOT find the word GIRT in the Bible, I looked in Bible dictionaries and Bible comentaries no such word now trhe wrod GIRD is there.

 

[RightFromWrong]

JOHN 21:7

That disciple therefore whom Jesus loved said to Peter , " it is the Lord " and so when Peter heard that it was the Lord , he put his outer garment on ( FOR HE WAS STRIPPED FOR WORK ) and threw himself into the sea.

Obvious he was dressed appropriately for the WORK he was doing.

You are drawing WAY to much out of this verse to have it fit what you want it to say.

 

[PASTOR MHG]

I got that from the qualification that the scripture placed in the passage about him being "naked" and having to put on his fishers coat. The act of girding here is the drawing up around the waste of the coat he had to PUT ON.

Compare that to the other passage in Exodus that has the loins and thighs covered...for the purpose of covering nakedness.

 

[RightFromWrong]

HE WAS IN THE WATER WHAT DID YOU EXPECT HIM TO BE WEARING !!!

This is not a good verse to use to prove your point, I don't know too many people who would go into the water fully dressed. Kind of hard to do his job dressed in a cloak

Can you find another. I hate it when people use ONLY one verse in the Bible to try and prove their point. Proper Hermanutics demands many verses to back up a point.

 

[PASTOR MHG]

I gave you two verses...there are more that deal with the subject. Study it.

I think you missed the point...he put his coat back on when he jumped into the water to go see the Lord.

Normally one would strip clothes off before going into the water, they would not put them back on.

The word in the greek here is literally translated "nude," that is without clothing.

Max

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by PASTOR MHG:
The word in the greek here is literally translated "nude," that is without clothing.

Actually, the word translated "naked" in John 21:7 is gumnos, which simply means "uncovered". Nothing more or less is implied. It does not imply any type of shame or vulnerablity as does the English "naked". It is similar to the Hebrew word Arom, which was used to describe Adam and Eve being naked without shame (Arom is not given a sinful or shameful attribute in the OT).

In fact, gumnos is where we get the word "gymnaseum" (gumnasion = "to excercize nude")

 

[DHK]

1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

"Gird up" does not mean remove, or the application here would be that we need "brainless" Christians.

So what does this expression mean?
Peter uses an expression that comes from the dress of those that go to war or those that go to work in the fields. The dress of the Romans was a toga. The dress of the Jews was also a long type of robe. If they were to go either to war or to work, they had to gird these long robes or tunics up to their waist, and tie them there. I assume that after tying them there that there would be some overflow of material still hanging down. But in this way the lower portion (the portion that would hang below the knees) would not hinder them from running to war, or from working in the field.

It is a sign of preparation. Be prepared for war. Be prepared for work. Gird up the loins of your mind. Let your minds be prepared for both spiritual warfare and the work that God has given us to do.
DHK

 

[TexasSky]

Johnv,

Was the "church" on the "beach" a "swim party?"

Would you have gone from that service to a court of law or a beach wedding or a beach memorial service and felt properly clothed?

Had the swim suit been a string-bikini would you feel it was appropriate?

Was breast clevage easily visible?

 

[blackbird]

Moderator note:

I am going to ask politely that the conversation be steered in another direction then what is easily read here. Failure to stear in another direction will cause the tread to be locked.

Bro. David