Pastor_Bob
Well-Known Member
Yes, I do agree with what you've stated. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I understand where you're coming from.
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Legalistic vs. Stricter Standards
- Thread starter Wisdom Seeker
- Start date
Wisdom Seeker --
I should explain my 8oD reaction to your note!
I imagined your short-skirted, fully ear-ringed,
cursing woman as a believer, and it caught me
off-guard!
I came from an Arminian background, and I will
readily admit that while I was smiling at the
thought, I really don't understand it. 8o) I was
reared to believe that salvation immediately
changed one, and indeed, it did for me. But I
already knew all the rules and regulations.
Seriously, though, would one continue habitual
cursing after becoming a believer? I simply
don't know.
I should explain my 8oD reaction to your note!
I imagined your short-skirted, fully ear-ringed,
cursing woman as a believer, and it caught me
off-guard!
I came from an Arminian background, and I will
readily admit that while I was smiling at the
thought, I really don't understand it. 8o) I was
reared to believe that salvation immediately
changed one, and indeed, it did for me. But I
already knew all the rules and regulations.
Seriously, though, would one continue habitual
cursing after becoming a believer? I simply
don't know.
Wisdom Seeker
New Member
Abiyah,
Well, I wouldn't. (thanks for explaining your little face... glad I made you laugh. It was sort of meant to be extreme...of course I was speaking about men and woman...not all the things I mentioned at once.
But, what I'm saying is that it's possible. Most IFB's even the stict ones would agree that observing standards is not pinacle to salvation.
Well, I wouldn't. (thanks for explaining your little face... glad I made you laugh. It was sort of meant to be extreme...of course I was speaking about men and woman...not all the things I mentioned at once.
But, what I'm saying is that it's possible. Most IFB's even the stict ones would agree that observing standards is not pinacle to salvation.
Maverick
Member
If Legalism has anything to do with standards than everyone in the Word and all the believers that have followed were legalists. There are very strict standards in Scripture even for believers under grace. The problem we have is that we associate grace and liberty with anarchy or anti-laws yet we exact standards on our own families. Some are family traditions that may or may not have to do with morality or have a clear biblical basis. Yet, when a preacher suggests or emphatically declares that a "standard" is the modern application of a spiritual truth we shout legalist especially if we are fond of a different fad or whatever.
Remember what Paul was dealing with. The Jews and Gentiles were coming together for the first time and the worlds were totally different. The Jews wanted to make the Gentiles like them and the Gentiles who were not big on rules fussed at the Jews for keeping the holidays and dietary laws when the Church was clearly exempt from all that.
Paul suggested that while all was lawful not all things are profitable and we have found out that the dietary laws were pretty dang healthy and while we are not required to follow them they would not hurt us to use as a nutritional guide since our standard American diet is killing us. Even Christ made the adultery rule stricter. he said you can look and say, hmm, hmm,would I like to spend the night with him/her without being guilty of adultry whereas in the OT you actually had to spend the night or hour or five minutes or whatever copulating to be an adultress/adulterer.
We are told to keep ourselves from all forms of evil. The world is getting more and more wicked and deceitful so it will take far more discernment to stay pure and holy, which we are commanded to do and to the world we will look silly and strict and to believers that do not wish to be that discerning for whatever reason, we will also look like killjoy legalists.
I wish we could just tiptoe through the daisies in some sort of Eden like field, but in reality we are in a war zone and the land is filled with mines.
Yes, the Holy Spirit should be the One teaching folks, but He also uses the Word (which many do not read often enough), wise counsel of Pastors and others (but we don't listen to them because they are legalists) and He will lead us into THE Truth on all issues. There are not many truths as some believers seem to think. The, "well that is your conviction and not mind" is not a valid statement or way to discern the truth. A lot of believers do not hear the conviction of the Spirit because of sin or because they have bought into the world's lies or because they misunderstand their liberty. We are free to do His will and His will is the same for all of His kids when it comes to morality, doctrine, standards, sanctification, etc. Yes, His will might be for me to start a church here in Texas and for someone else to start one in NY, but the truth we teach and live will be the same for us both. One mind and speak the same thing is what we are commanded to do. Why are there so many minds and so many things being spoken? They cannot all be truth especially when so many of them are mutually exclusive of the other.
There must be divisions and heresies among us that the approved made be manifest. So many who would say that they believe in absolutes speak a different tune when it comes to their likes and dislikes. Now, we have gray areas and legalism and stuff and don't push that stuff on me. Paul pushed a lot of stuff on everyone as did the rest of Scripture writers. With that attitude we better not witness because we don't want to push anything on anyone. We talk out of both sides of our mouth. We say that there are absolutes that everyone must come to in order to get to Heaven, but after that God left everything up for grabs so that everyone can do that which is right in their own eyes. Is it any wonder that the Church is weak and in chaos and the Lost think we are nuts or at best totally confused? God is TRUTH, there is no shadow or darkness in Him so that means that in His creation and our reality everything is either light or darkness and we better find out which is which and qit playing in the middle of the gray highway because we get run over by both light and darkness.
No standards do not send us to Hell, but lack of them can make our life here seem like Hell and send others to Hell as they watch us and stay confused because we have so many voices. God is not the author of confusion so guess who we are listening to if we are causing confusion? Guess who is causing it in our Churches? We ignore the Word and decide to do everything our way.
Oddly, when the Christians in the country had stricter standards that even crossed denominational lines our country was strong, people were being saved and were committed and even lost people had respect for Christians. If that is the fruit of legalism then may God grant us a bumper crop!!!
Now, in our joyous search for "liberty" and the means to not offend the lost we are a laughingstock and our country is sick nigh unto death. That does not sound like the fruit of righteousness to me. If the proof is in the pudding then the trends that the Church have followed since the sixties were curdled milk laced with arsenic.
1 Pet 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. (KJV)
2549 kakia (kak-ee'-ah);
from 2556; badness, i.e. (subjectively) depravity, or (actively) malignity, or (passively) trouble:
KJV-- evil, malice (-iousness), naughtiness, wickedness.
Isa 5:20-21
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! (KJV)
We want ot be free to do our own thing and we have no clue as to what is right or wrong hence all the quibbling and striving over words on this board.
Heb 5:12-14
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (KJV)
Way too many babes in the Church and some have been saved for many years.
Jer 2:8 The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit. (KJV)
Many other denominations have been in this state for years and it looks like Baptists are running, not walking down the same path of judgment.
Jer 22:21-22
21 I spake unto thee in thy prosperity; but thou saidst, I will not hear. This hath been thy manner from thy youth, that thou obeyedst not my voice.
22 The wind shall eat up all thy pastors, and thy lovers shall go into captivity: surely then shalt thou be ashamed and confounded for all thy wickedness. (KJV)
And this may well be where the US will end up. We are far too rich and throw temper tantrums like fat little brats and have far to much idle time to taken up with the world's foolishness and thus our spiritual ignorance.
Jer 3:14-15
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. (KJV)
May this become our course of action that God may grant us pastors according to His heart and not ones according to the scholarship and whims of this age.
Remember what Paul was dealing with. The Jews and Gentiles were coming together for the first time and the worlds were totally different. The Jews wanted to make the Gentiles like them and the Gentiles who were not big on rules fussed at the Jews for keeping the holidays and dietary laws when the Church was clearly exempt from all that.
Paul suggested that while all was lawful not all things are profitable and we have found out that the dietary laws were pretty dang healthy and while we are not required to follow them they would not hurt us to use as a nutritional guide since our standard American diet is killing us. Even Christ made the adultery rule stricter. he said you can look and say, hmm, hmm,would I like to spend the night with him/her without being guilty of adultry whereas in the OT you actually had to spend the night or hour or five minutes or whatever copulating to be an adultress/adulterer.
We are told to keep ourselves from all forms of evil. The world is getting more and more wicked and deceitful so it will take far more discernment to stay pure and holy, which we are commanded to do and to the world we will look silly and strict and to believers that do not wish to be that discerning for whatever reason, we will also look like killjoy legalists.
I wish we could just tiptoe through the daisies in some sort of Eden like field, but in reality we are in a war zone and the land is filled with mines.
Yes, the Holy Spirit should be the One teaching folks, but He also uses the Word (which many do not read often enough), wise counsel of Pastors and others (but we don't listen to them because they are legalists) and He will lead us into THE Truth on all issues. There are not many truths as some believers seem to think. The, "well that is your conviction and not mind" is not a valid statement or way to discern the truth. A lot of believers do not hear the conviction of the Spirit because of sin or because they have bought into the world's lies or because they misunderstand their liberty. We are free to do His will and His will is the same for all of His kids when it comes to morality, doctrine, standards, sanctification, etc. Yes, His will might be for me to start a church here in Texas and for someone else to start one in NY, but the truth we teach and live will be the same for us both. One mind and speak the same thing is what we are commanded to do. Why are there so many minds and so many things being spoken? They cannot all be truth especially when so many of them are mutually exclusive of the other.
There must be divisions and heresies among us that the approved made be manifest. So many who would say that they believe in absolutes speak a different tune when it comes to their likes and dislikes. Now, we have gray areas and legalism and stuff and don't push that stuff on me. Paul pushed a lot of stuff on everyone as did the rest of Scripture writers. With that attitude we better not witness because we don't want to push anything on anyone. We talk out of both sides of our mouth. We say that there are absolutes that everyone must come to in order to get to Heaven, but after that God left everything up for grabs so that everyone can do that which is right in their own eyes. Is it any wonder that the Church is weak and in chaos and the Lost think we are nuts or at best totally confused? God is TRUTH, there is no shadow or darkness in Him so that means that in His creation and our reality everything is either light or darkness and we better find out which is which and qit playing in the middle of the gray highway because we get run over by both light and darkness.
No standards do not send us to Hell, but lack of them can make our life here seem like Hell and send others to Hell as they watch us and stay confused because we have so many voices. God is not the author of confusion so guess who we are listening to if we are causing confusion? Guess who is causing it in our Churches? We ignore the Word and decide to do everything our way.
Oddly, when the Christians in the country had stricter standards that even crossed denominational lines our country was strong, people were being saved and were committed and even lost people had respect for Christians. If that is the fruit of legalism then may God grant us a bumper crop!!!
Now, in our joyous search for "liberty" and the means to not offend the lost we are a laughingstock and our country is sick nigh unto death. That does not sound like the fruit of righteousness to me. If the proof is in the pudding then the trends that the Church have followed since the sixties were curdled milk laced with arsenic.
1 Pet 2:16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God. (KJV)
2549 kakia (kak-ee'-ah);
from 2556; badness, i.e. (subjectively) depravity, or (actively) malignity, or (passively) trouble:
KJV-- evil, malice (-iousness), naughtiness, wickedness.
Isa 5:20-21
20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight! (KJV)
We want ot be free to do our own thing and we have no clue as to what is right or wrong hence all the quibbling and striving over words on this board.
Heb 5:12-14
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil. (KJV)
Way too many babes in the Church and some have been saved for many years.
Jer 2:8 The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit. (KJV)
Many other denominations have been in this state for years and it looks like Baptists are running, not walking down the same path of judgment.
Jer 22:21-22
21 I spake unto thee in thy prosperity; but thou saidst, I will not hear. This hath been thy manner from thy youth, that thou obeyedst not my voice.
22 The wind shall eat up all thy pastors, and thy lovers shall go into captivity: surely then shalt thou be ashamed and confounded for all thy wickedness. (KJV)
And this may well be where the US will end up. We are far too rich and throw temper tantrums like fat little brats and have far to much idle time to taken up with the world's foolishness and thus our spiritual ignorance.
Jer 3:14-15
14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:
15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. (KJV)
May this become our course of action that God may grant us pastors according to His heart and not ones according to the scholarship and whims of this age.
This is an excellent definition of "sanctificational legalism", as opposed to what has already been *correctly* given-- on this post by WisdomSeeker
-- as 'legalism' in the theological sense: adding/substituting works to/for grace, which is the traditional and historical meaning of legalism. The making and adhering to of human standards and placing them on a pedestal equalling that of Holy Writ is sanctificational legalism-- and error. We should allow the Holy Spirit to continue His work of sanctifying each believer, and not to heap on ourselves 'rules and standards' that may do some good, but the understanding of why such rules are implemented are lost or corrupted-- or worse, forced upon believers by those who are 'control freaks'. We should trust the Lord to continue His work in us that "the man of God may be complete".[ September 28, 2002, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: LRL71 ]
Wisdom Seeker
New Member
Exactly Johnv. That was the purpose of this thread. Legalism means one thing, but people using the word have adopted an alternative meaning for it.
Just because a person adopts stricter standards doesn't make them a legalist...unless they think it will save them.
Unfortunately, people think "legalist" means a person who has stricter standards or practices than they do.
And, as par for the course, when one person uses the term this way...it's contagious. So much so, that the definition of the word has become obscured by the popular use, and has taken on the alternative, incorrect use of the term.
[ September 30, 2002, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: WisdomSeeker ]
Just because a person adopts stricter standards doesn't make them a legalist...unless they think it will save them.
Unfortunately, people think "legalist" means a person who has stricter standards or practices than they do.
And, as par for the course, when one person uses the term this way...it's contagious. So much so, that the definition of the word has become obscured by the popular use, and has taken on the alternative, incorrect use of the term.
[ September 30, 2002, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: WisdomSeeker ]
According to the dictionary I use, "legalism" is defined as "Strict, literal adherence to the law or to a particular code, as of religion or morality." The definition said nothing about salvation.
Is not "following strict standards" the same as "strict adherence to a particular code"?
Where did you get your definition of legalism, which means adding to grace for salvation?
Wisdom Seeker
New Member
Please read the opening post for the answer to your question.
I have, several times. You mention "the original description of the term", I am simply asking you where you got this original definition from. You assert the definition wrong, but based on what? Why isn't it in dictionaries? Don't words mean what dictionaries say they mean?
I'm not trying to argue, just understand.
[ September 30, 2002, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]
I'm not trying to argue, just understand.
[ September 30, 2002, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]
Wisdom Seeker
New Member
Originally posted by Johnv:
We folks think differently down in this corner of the country, don't we
[ October 01, 2002, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: WisdomSeeker ]
Wisdom Seeker
New Member
Christian terms and their meanings, I have found, are best studied out in the Bible not a dictionary that is not Bible based. I used the Bible as my reference.
I know your not, I wouldn't assume that asking questions was "trying to argue". I'm not that way.
I certainly disagree with those who say that we
attach the word, legalism, to anything that we
don't want to go along with! NO! Not true!
I am about as straight-arrow as they come--
prudish, innocent, naive, whatever words you
want to attach to my ways. No alcohol, no
smoking, etc.
But I still see legalism in the churches! If they
are not verbally claiming that their little extra-
biblical rules are necessary for salvation, they
at least attach them firmly to salvation after the
fact! And if they don't do that, the people are
often looked down upon for not following these
rules!
The Bible indeed has standards: in my own
words, live moral lives, be modest, live as
healthily as possible, be sure your life does
not betray our God, etc. We need to live by
these things! Adding to our God's standards
will not make Him love us any more than He
already does.
But it might make you feel better about yourself.
It may even make you be more productive as a
believer.
I know there are those who claim that those of
us who demand more of ourselves are trying
to save ourselves, trying to live in a self-created
holiness, but that is not so. I choose to live like
this because I am happy this way, but my per-
sonal standard should never extend beyond
my personal space. Period.
attach the word, legalism, to anything that we
don't want to go along with! NO! Not true!
I am about as straight-arrow as they come--
prudish, innocent, naive, whatever words you
want to attach to my ways. No alcohol, no
smoking, etc.
But I still see legalism in the churches! If they
are not verbally claiming that their little extra-
biblical rules are necessary for salvation, they
at least attach them firmly to salvation after the
fact! And if they don't do that, the people are
often looked down upon for not following these
rules!
The Bible indeed has standards: in my own
words, live moral lives, be modest, live as
healthily as possible, be sure your life does
not betray our God, etc. We need to live by
these things! Adding to our God's standards
will not make Him love us any more than He
already does.
But it might make you feel better about yourself.
It may even make you be more productive as a
believer.
I know there are those who claim that those of
us who demand more of ourselves are trying
to save ourselves, trying to live in a self-created
holiness, but that is not so. I choose to live like
this because I am happy this way, but my per-
sonal standard should never extend beyond
my personal space. Period.