Legislating the 4th Commandment

[BobRyan]

On the dicussion thread at the link below more than 30 people voted to admit that God's Ten Commandments should still be respected and honored by Christians --

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1128724#post1128724

I was one of them.

This thread had an option for "editing the 4th commandment" to apply to Sunday - but I already stated on that thread that I conclude that of the 27 that voted in favor of the ten commandments "just as they are" there many within that group that would still like to apply the 4th commandment to Sunday.

This thread is followup -

In some counties in the state of Georgia there are "Sunday laws" restricting the kind of construction work that can be done on Sunday's. Some view this as a violation of the principle of separation of church and state.

Given that Baptists in the late 1700's were under a lot of persecution by those who would "merge church and state together" to the point of having a state religion and persecuting those with a different theology - what is the general sense on this board?

In favor of -- or opposed to legislating the 4th commandment?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[larryjf]

The 10 commandments are a great summary of God's moral law. Nobody is excused from striving to follow God's moral laws, not even those who make up the government. The government is just as responsible for upholding God's moral laws against murder, theft, etc. as they are His moral laws regarding the Sabbath, idolatry, etc.

God's moral commands are not just for the Church, but for all of creation.

The separation of Church and State does not mean that the State can't legislate moral laws, only that they can't legislate a religion.

The commandments as found in Ex 20 only specify 1 day in 7 as being the sabbath, not a particular day. In Mat 28:1 and other passages we see that the first day of the week is called teh Sabbath...

Mat 28:1
Now at the end of the Sabbaths, as it began to dawn toward the first of the Sabbaths, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave.

 

[The Scribe]

Sunday laws are a good idea. Not selling alcohol at all would be a better idea.

 

[Sopranette]

Opposed. Non Christians should not be forced to obey Christian commandments, and it is a violation of their rights as Americans.

love,

Sopranette

 

[Palatka51]

Our society is in decline because God's people are not obeying God's Word. Not Because of govt non support of the 4th commandment. The Sabbath should be honored by God's people.
The state does not need to get involved. If you want businesses to close on Sunday then God's people need to stay home.
Sunday is rapidly becoming the busiest day of the week for grocery stores and restaurants. The busiest hours are 11 am to 6 pm.

 

[EdSutton]

On the dicussion thread at the link below more than 30 people voted to admit that God's Ten Commandments should still be respected and honored by Christians --

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1128724#post1128724

I was one of them.

This thread had an option for "editing the 4th commandment" to apply to Sunday - but I already stated on that thread that I conclude that of the 27 that voted in favor of the ten commandments "just as they are" there many within that group that would still like to apply the 4th commandment to Sunday.

This thread is followup -

In some counties in the state of Georgia there are "Sunday laws" restricting the kind of construction work that can be done on Sunday's. Some view this as a violation of the principle of separation of church and state.

Given that Baptists in the late 1700's were under a lot of persecution by those who would "merge church and state together" to the point of having a state religion and persecuting those with a different theology - what is the general sense on this board?

In favor of -- or opposed to legislating the 4th commandment?

in Christ,

Bob

FTR, count me in what is probably a small crowd that does not see anything particularly Constitutionally wrong with any state having a 'state church', or as you put it, 'state religion', athough I also don't particularly see that it makes much sense. Persecuting those with a different theology is another matter, entirely.

The Constitution does not prohibit such, that I read, although the judicial policy and practice of "stare decisis" makes this an extremely unlikely event, unless there is a Constitutional Amendment to that effect (which ain't never gonna' happen), or specific legislation passed to that effect, with the accompanying legislation that removes this from the review of the courts, per Article III; Sect. 2; Paragraph 2; Sentence 2. (This also probably ain't gonna' happen, IMO, as I don't believe it has happened very often, if at all, in 220 years!)

Beyond that, I would assume that our secular government can duly enact whatever laws it chooses to, in its collective wisdom. In KY, there are also some laws regarding things that cannot be done on Sunday, with usually, restricting certain types of sales, predominately alcohol, by local governments coming to mind.

Although personally I think that is a good thing, that merely happens to be the law, here. I would assume that this is somewhat left over from some of the old "blue laws", but I still hope that this does not change. I do not think 'the church' should be able to 'demand' such legislation, for any 'religious' reason, merely because they prefer it.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Opposed. Non Christians should not be forced to obey Christian commandments, and it is a violation of their rights as Americans.

love,

Sopranette

Actually, I believe there are only things the US Constitution says about any of this. They are that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof:...", and "but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States."

I admit I could be wrong, in this, as there could possibly be more in the Constitution, that I may hav missed on the subject, but do not think so, having read the Constitution several times.

FTR, the United States Congress got around the First Amendment, in the case of the Mormon religion (and the associated practice of polygamy) and Utah, by passing a law declaring polygamy illegal in 1862; 'absorbing' the Territory of Deseret into a Territory of Utah; and 5 times over some 40 years, refusing to consider the petitions for statehood, until the Mormon church 'officially' stopped the practice of polygamy in 1890. Utah was admitted as a state, after this occurred, in 1896.

Obviously, the "establishment of religion" known as the "Latter-Day Saints" was "respected differently" from that of other "establishments of religion".

Ed

 

[trustitl]

This is sad.

 

[EdSutton]

This is sad.

Just curious.

What, exactly, is sad here?

Ed

 

[trustitl]

Here are some reasons. All quotes from this topic.

not see anything particularly Constitutionally wrong with any state having a 'state church', or as you put it, 'state religion'

The Sabbath should be honored by God's people. If you want businesses to close on Sunday then God's people need to stay home. (Emphasis mine)

Sunday laws are a good idea

The government is just as responsible for upholding God's moral laws against murder, theft, etc. as they are His moral laws regarding the Sabbath, idolatry, etc.

Plus this was started by an SDA with an agenda.

Jim

 

[Alcott]

No such laws are needed because allowable acitivties are not determined by the day of the week.

 

[EdSutton]

Here are some reasons. All quotes from this topic.

not see anything particularly Constitutionally wrong with any state having a 'state church', or as you put it, 'state religion'

The Sabbath should be honored by God's people. If you want businesses to close on Sunday then God's people need to stay home. (Emphasis mine)

Sunday laws are a good idea

The government is just as responsible for upholding God's moral laws against murder, theft, etc. as they are His moral laws regarding the Sabbath, idolatry, etc.

Plus this was started by an SDA with an agenda.

Jim

Given that the first sentence you cite is one I made, have I said something incorrect, here? If so, how?

As another posted, several of the colonies, and at least 7 of the original 13 states had some sort of 'state churches', with the last to go probably being that of the Congressional church in Massachusetts over 50 years after our nation's independence, in 1833.

BTW, I do agree with the second sentence you cite, as well. If there is no business, for whatever reason, religious or otherwise, there will not be open doors on them, for very long, anyway.

Frankly, I do not usually attempt to discern who may or may not have what agenda with my responses, as a rule, although I do recognize such exist, certainly, including in this thread. But that doesn't necessarily have to do with whether or not something is factual, IMO.

Ed

 

[J.Wayne]

Please forgive my ingorance, but would someone be as kind as to do into some detail (more specific detail) concerning the OP? I am just not getting that 'click'.

 

[The Scribe]

The Sabbath should be honored by God's people. If you want businesses to close on Sunday then God's people need to stay home. (Emphasis mine)

Sunday laws are a good idea

The government is just as responsible for upholding God's moral laws against murder, theft, etc. as they are His moral laws regarding the Sabbath, idolatry, etc.

Plus this was started by an SDA with an agenda.

Jim

I agree, go to church on Sunday then go home. You can buy gas on Saturday or any other day of the week, the same thing goes for anything else you need.

Why does the government go by a few laws in the Bible and skip others?

If non-christians shouldn't be forced to obey Christian commandments, and it is a violation of their rights as Americans. Why are Christians forced to obey non-christian laws?

Christians shouldn't have to pay taxes and Christians shouldn't be expected to be at a job on Sunday or any other time they are to be at church or a church activity.

Why should we have to pay taxes to a government that legalized abortion, and has a legal system that doesn't punish most criminals, and so on?

If there is separation of church and state why does this country that has forgotten God still say they are a Christian nation and still have in God we trust on the currency?

What about insurance companies that get away with saying something is an act of God when they don't believe in God or worship him?

The government can call certain taxes "sin tax" when they aren't Christians.

They pick and choose what they like. It's not right for them to do that then tell us we have to obey their laws and not ours.

 

[J.Wayne]

For twenty years, being in restaurant management, and being forced to comply with the rule that no one could be forced to work on Sundays (due to religious belief), I had an employee which claimed that as a Christian, it was a sin to work on the Lord's Day, only to come in after church with his entire family to eat lunch. Now, how Christian was this, and was this not having double standards?

In my lifetime of being in church, I will never forget the Sunday during the sermon when the pastor flat out told the congregation that they should not go out to eat after church, and to quit being hypocrites. I was beaming and he knew it.

 

[rbell]

I agree, go to church on Sunday then go home. You can buy gas on Saturday or any other day of the week, the same thing goes for anything else you need.

Besides being unworkable in today's world, I do think that total enforcement of "Sunday laws" would unravel the first amendment's original design.

I'm more in favor of raising up a generation of Truett Cathy's (Chik-fil-A)...who choose to give their employees a day off for worship, rest, and family (that's on the door of every one of their restaurants).

Why does the government go by a few laws in the Bible and skip others?

I doubt any of us want full enforcement of all OT laws. We won't have enough grave sites to bury the adulterers and rebellious kids.

 

[The Scribe]

Besides being unworkable in today's world, I do think that total enforcement of "Sunday laws" would unravel the first amendment's original design.

I'm more in favor of raising up a generation of Truett Cathy's (Chik-fil-A)...who choose to give their employees a day off for worship, rest, and family (that's on the door of every one of their restaurants).

It could work if they wanted it to. But, people would rather work on Sunday so they can buy more material items.

I doubt any of us want full enforcement of all OT laws. We won't have enough grave sites to bury the adulterers and rebellious kids.

I believe we could manage. :saint:

 

[J.Wayne]

Besides being unworkable in today's world, I do think that total enforcement of "Sunday laws" would unravel the first amendment's original design.

I'm more in favor of raising up a generation of Truett Cathy's (Chik-fil-A)...who choose to give their employees a day off for worship, rest, and family (that's on the door of every one of their restaurants).

I doubt any of us want full enforcement of all OT laws. We won't have enough grave sites to bury the adulterers and rebellious kids.

"being unworkable in today's world" how so?

"I'm more in favor of raising up a generation of Truett Cathy's (Chik-fil-A)...who choose to give their employees a day off for worship, rest, and family (that's on the door of every one of their restaurants)." How does this not totally contradict the first response?

Which is it? Workable or not?

 

[J.Wayne]

Besides being unworkable in today's world, I do think that total enforcement of "Sunday laws" would unravel the first amendment's original design.

I'm more in favor of raising up a generation of Truett Cathy's (Chik-fil-A)...who choose to give their employees a day off for worship, rest, and family (that's on the door of every one of their restaurants).

I doubt any of us want full enforcement of all OT laws. We won't have enough grave sites to bury the adulterers and rebellious kids.

"being unworkable in today's world" how so?

"I'm more in favor of raising up a generation of Truett Cathy's (Chik-fil-A)...who choose to give their employees a day off for worship, rest, and family (that's on the door of every one of their restaurants)." How does this not totally contradict the first response?

Which is it? Workable or not?

 

[rbell]

mandating that all businesses close is simply not feasible in today's world. Of course, there would be the "essential" places that must stay open (such as hospitals, fire stations, etc.) But who decides what is "essential?" Hotels? Pharmacies? and the list goes on and on...And there is the issue of the First Amendment. But....I seriously doubt that Sunday work laws would ever pass Constitutional muster in today's world.

Furthermore...like it or not, this is a seven-day workweek world. I wish it wasn't, but it is. There will never, ever be a return to how it was. The money, convenience, tax revenue, and many other factors mean Sunday "blue laws" won't be enacted. I'm not arguing that it's better that way...just that it's going to be that way.

Like I said, the Chik-Fil-A's of the world...may their numbers increase. And for the folks that work there, they have a special blessing. But for many, they have a difficult issue. People need to make a living. And there's simply not enough jobs out there that allow for every Sunday to be off. So, many people have to do their best and within the context of their job, get off for worship as much as they can. Some have better success than others. Some employers are more understanding than others.

So when I say "unworkable," it's more from the idea that it won't happen. Can individual companies pull it off? Yes...but it takes dedication from Christian leadership (I would strongly suspect), and there's fewer of those than I wish there were. Can municipalities/states/etc. pull it off? No...it won't pass the "cost analysis" test (think in secular and $$ terms), nor would it pass constitutional muster.