Let God Be True

[Logos1560]

So in printed editions we have the preserved Scriptures but yet the overall teaching of them indicates there can be none. Got it.

You do not get it or you misunderstand. Your second clause is not actually what I stated as it tries to twist what I stated into something that I did not say.

One statement was about preservation while the other statement was about inspiration so my two statements did not conflict at all.

 

[Michael Hollner]

You already were given an answer on page 5 of the thread about Revelation 16:5. Here is that answer again.

Although the original autographs are not known to exist on earth, the preserved Scriptures in the original language still exist in the multiple manuscript copies and in printed editions. I believe God is just as faithful to preserve His words today as He was before 1611.

The KJV was based on multiple, varying original-language editions of the Scriptures so why can't the Scriptures be in multiple varying original-language editions as it was before 1611? I have reprint editions of some of the printed original-language texts on which the KJV is said to be based. Would KJV-only advocates suggest that those editions are not the word of God so that the KJV was not translated from the word of God? Do the Scriptures actually teach that each believer has to have a complete, every-word perfect edition of all the Scriptures in one volume?

Do you ignore how that new believers in the book of Acts are said to have received the word of God even though they did not have an complete, every-word, inerrant scroll or copy of the entire Scriptures [all the New Testament had not yet been given and written]? It would have likely taken months for the multiple scrolls to be copied that would be needed to contain the entire Old Testament in the original languages.

While having all the Scriptures in one printed volume has not been demonstrated to be essential, there are some printed one volume editions with both the Hebrew Old Testament and the Greek New Testament. One example would be The Interlinear Bible edited by Jay Green, and it also includes an English translation.

It is inconsistent KJV-only reasoning that seems to suggest that God failed to preserve some of His exact, specific words given by inspiration to the prophets and apostles so that they supposedly had to be restored from imperfect Latin translations or other language translations or regiven in 1611. I do not find that KJV-only advocates present any clear, consistent, sound, scriptural view of the preservation of the Scriptures.

‘the preserved Scriptures in the original language still exist in the multiple manuscript copies and in printed editions.’

There is a problem with that, for if the ‘original language’ Scriptures were preserved in ‘multiple manuscript copies and printed editions’ they would all be perfect and say the same thing as the actual ‘original manuscripts’ were. Your ‘multiple manuscripts’ (which you never actually tell us which manuscripts you are referring to specifically) differ in thousands of places and your ‘modern edition Bibles’ all differ in thousands of places, in the year 2021! Now resist that feeling to go back to 1611, we are talking about the year 2021, TODAY. Do not straw man or scapegoat back to a ‘blast in the past.’ To use a secular analogy, Ask the animals of the forest and the birds of the sky what time it is and they will respond, “the time is now.” Jonathan Sheffield made a comment to James White in his YouTube video production of “a James White Halloween.” As James holds Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus in his hands he says, “my precious,” and the response was, ‘snap out of it James, these manuscripts are fools-gold.” Sometimes we need to ‘snap out of’ things we are all hung up on, which are but distractions in order to focus our minds on much more important things.

God commands us to ‘all speak the same thing.’ This is not possible when for instance you are at a Bible study, and you have several dozen people all reading out of different Bible versions that all say something different. That is confusion and “God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints” (I Cor 14:33) KJV.

“Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment” (I Cor 1:10) KJV.

God wants us to be in ‘one mind,’ and in ‘one accord, and having ‘one faith’ (Philippians 2:2; Eph 4:5) KJV. “Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God” (Rom 10:17). ONE FAITH is not just a doctrinal unity but to have faith in ONE BIBLE. God only wrote ONE BIBLE, not multiple ones of confusion. ONE MIND, ONE HEART, ONE SOUL, ONE ACCORD, ONE FAITH, ONE DOCTRINE, ONE BOOK, ONE CHURCH, ONE LORD! 100% unity as the early Church had with only ONE BIBLE all saying the same thing, thus “the word of God grew and multiplied” (Acts 12:24) KJV.

‘The KJV was based on multiple, varying original-language editions of the Scriptures so why can't the Scriptures be in multiple varying original-language editions as it was before 1611?’

Because this is the year 2021 Rick. Stop trying to figure it out by asking rhetorical questions. Why did God wait 4000 years to send Jesus in the flesh? God has a timing for everything and we both could write a book on all the historical considerations of why this and why that. Is that not the ‘human reasoning’ you always refer to. Try to focus on today in the year 2021. I mean God could have given the early Church the ability to invent the printing press in the 1st century to compile all 66 books after Revelation was complete, and we would have millions of PRINTED copies of that ONE printed BOOK of the originals. Why did He not do this Rick? You don’t know and neither do I, just as we both don’t know why God waited until 1450 to give man the wisdom for the printing press. Jesus walked on the water but does that mean he could not swim? “But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes” (II Tim 2:23) KJV. Only God knows ALL the historical considerations prior to 1450 such as population, languages, the TIMING of the reformation, the soon-to-be universal ENGLISH language, technology, transportation, and on and on we could go. As we sing the old-fashioned hymn, “We’ll understand it better [in the] by and by.’

‘Do the Scriptures actually teach that each believer has to have a complete, every-word perfect edition of all the Scriptures in one volume?’

Of course not, just as the early Church did not have all the 66 compiled books in the 1st century. BUT WE DO NOW RICK, IN THE YEAR 2021! The time is now! So in the year 2021, yes! “Seek ye out of THE BOOK OF THE LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them” (Isa 34:16) KJV. That is not to say I cannot walk around with a pocket New Testament with only 27 out of the 66 books in my pocket, nor that the early Church was somehow deprived of the word of God by not having all 66 books compiled yet. You are thinking way too much into this with ‘human reasoning.’

“Say not thou, What is the cause that the former days were better than these? for thou dost not enquire wisely concerning this” (Ecc 7:10) KJV. Sometimes it is not always wise to try to figure out the cause of everything in the past, it distracts us from the NOW, for TODAY, in the year 2021, is much more important, for ‘NOW is the day of salvation” (II Cor 6:2) KJV.

Thus, THE BOOK is now one book in the year 2021, not multiple contradicting books that bring confusion. THE BOOK is ONE BOOK.

“And THE BOOK is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned” (Isa 29:12) KJV. THE BOOK is ONE BOOK.

“And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of THE BOOK, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness” (Isa 29:13) KJV. Many will soon understand there is only ONE BOOK.

“Every word of God is pure” (Pro 30:5) KJV.

The Bible versions issue is ALL about faith and spiritual discernment.

This is the year of our Lord, 2021. And my King James Bible will say the same exact thing next year in 2022, in the next decade in 2032, and if the Lord tarries, in the next century in 3021. Can you say that for the modern versions Rick? Will they all agree by 3021 in a thousand years? Perhaps by then, we can ‘all speak the same thing’ (I Cor 1:10) or you can become a KJV Bible believer now in the year 2021, and we will have ‘one faith’ in ONE BOOK. The time is now Rick.

Perhaps we should discuss other topics from henceforth and try to find common ground on other doctrines, at least that would be a start. The one question I asked you previously that you never answered was that we should pray for each other. I asked you, “do you agree with at least this”? You never responded. Would you care to respond, for I always do appreciate others praying for me. I have a soft heart Rick, I care about you and I always try to show compassion. I know my writings do come across as ‘forcible’ (Job 6:25) at times, but as a minister, I must speak that which I believe the Lord has given me. I just think at this point, the back and forth must conclude, and it would be nice to say something edifying to each other such as……

Blessings….

 

[Logos1560]

God commands us to ‘all speak the same thing.’

The actual few Greek NT manuscripts on which the textually-varying Textus Receptus was based do not all have the same identical words or do not all speak the same thing.

The 1611 KJV did not have all the same identical words as the pre-1611 English Bibles of which it is a revision.

Even all the many varying editions of the KJV do not have all the same identical words.

Even you do not speak all the same things as other KJV-only authors. Your opinions conflict or contradict the opinions of some other KJV-only authors.

 

[Logos1560]

“Every word of God is pure” (Pro 30:5) KJV.

Every word of God is pure also means that every error or mistake introduced by men in copying, in printing, or in translating is not pure and is not the word of God.

The context that includes Proverbs 30:6 also makes it clear that words added by men are not words that proceeded directly from the mouth of God by inspiration.

 

[Logos1560]

The Bible versions issue is ALL about faith and spiritual discernment.

Do you suggest that believers who do not agree with your opinions lack faith and spiritual discernment?

It would be wrong to attempt to excuse or rationalize believing assertions that are not true as being all about faith. The Bible makes it clear that believing assertions that are not true is being deceived. Sound biblical faith does not involve being deceived by believing assertions that are not true. Blind faith or misplaced faith in assertions that are not true is not the same thing as biblical faith in God.

It would not be evidence of sound spiritual discernment to defend or excuse believing KJV-only assertions or claims that are not true or that are not scriptural.

The Scriptures acknowledge that professed believers or those who have faith can be deceived or can even deceive themselves (1 John 1:8, James 1:22, James 1:26, 1 Cor. 10:12, Gal. 6:3, Eph. 5:6). The Lord Jesus and the apostle John warned believers of the possibility of being deceived by man (Matt. 24:4, Mark 13:5, 1 John 3:7). The cunning craftiness and sleight of man can deceive and mislead believers (Eph. 4:14). The righteous can be caused to go astray in an evil way (Prov. 28:10). Believers can be deceived by vain words (Eph. 5:6), which could include empty assertions based on fallacies. When someone deceives himself or is deceived by others, it indicates that the person is at least partially blind concerning the matter about which he is deceived.

 

[Logos1560]

This is the year of our Lord, 2021. And my King James Bible will say the same exact thing next year in 2022, in the next decade in 2032, and if the Lord tarries, in the next century in 3021.

If you buy a different edition of the KJV, it may not say the same exact thing.

There are actual differences in the many present varying editions of the KJV. Beginning in the 1980's, some publishers of the KJV started to use a computer-based text of the KJV [perhaps a KJV text typed up for a web site or for computer Bible programs or directly for the purpose of printing]. There are at least two or three varying computer-based texts being used by more than one publisher of the KJV. Whoever first typed up this text of the KJV unintentionally introduced some changes including some errors.

Even the KJV editions being published by groups that are KJV-only are pro-KJV have differences in their KJV texts.

Michael Hollner wrote: "There are even counterfeit KJV Bibles that we have to watch out for today" (King James Only Debate, p. 16). How do you expect your readers to watch out for them since you provide no criteria for how to detect them? You in effect suggest that readers believe every word of the KJV so how can they discern if it is "counterfeit" when they are supposed to be believing every word of it? You do not seem to have any greater authority for determining whether a KJV edition is supposedly a true one or counterfeit one.

 

[SGO]

Great, a long paragraph of your evidence but no verses from the bible which say, "only the originals are inspired."
I know you read the KJV but you do not have to use that one because you do not believe it is inspired.
Any of the majors will do.
All part of the stew.
Verses, verses, verses.
Not the wisdom of man.
What could be worses than some verses?

All scripture is given by inspiration of God...
2 Timothy 3:16

 

[Alan Gross]

Someone is missing their temperance.

You are truly Blessed of God for your faith in the Preservation of The Inspiration in the KJV, by The Superintendence of the Holy Spirit and comparation, by God's people, of the proper manuscript evidence.

Prayer is how a person named Logos can be brought to that same faith in the more pure word of God. More pure than the prophets.

The Authority and Inspiration of the KJV is as good as it's integrity, which is perfect.

The flesh, however, is present in the greatest of saints.

Too bad they can be so bewitched.

Too bad the discussion exists.

You are are called wrong, without the thought that all the brilliantly fleshed out objections are irrelevant.

The Word Stands and the teachers who fall for 'the KJV is not inspired' thought in their flesh, come and go.

I have see it happen to the finest teachers and to me, although I may not be all that.

I am sorry. I was eternally wrong and flesh-filled.

Thank you, for your prayerful stand for, IT MEANS WHAT IT SAYS AND IS ALIIIIIVE.

 

[Michael Hollner]

You are truly Blessed of God for your faith in the Preservation of The Inspiration in the KJV, by The Superintendence of the Holy Spirit and comparation, by God's people, of the proper manuscript evidence.

Prayer is how a person named Logos can be brought to that same faith in the more pure word of God. More pure than the prophets.

The Authority and Inspiration of the KJV is as good as it's integrity, which is perfect.

The flesh, however, is present in the greatest of saints.

Too bad they can be so bewitched.

Too bad the discussion exists.

You are are called wrong, without the thought that all the brilliantly fleshed out objections are irrelevant.

The Word Stands and the teachers who fall for 'the KJV is not inspired' thought in their flesh, come and go.

I have see it happen to the finest teachers and to me, although I may not be all that.

I am sorry. I was eternally wrong and flesh-filled.

Thank you, for your prayerful stand for, IT MEANS WHAT IT SAYS AND IS ALIIIIIVE.

'Too bad the discussion exists.'

These Bible version discussions would not even be taking place some 50-60 years ago for the most part.

The King James Bible is truly the Monarch of all books!

The King James Bible: The Monarch of all Books!

 

[Logos1560]

The Word Stands and the teachers who fall for 'the KJV is not inspired' thought in their flesh, come and go.

You make incorrect bogus accusations against Bible believers guided by the Holy Spirit of truth.

Perhaps you cannot present any positive, clear, consistent, sound, true, or scriptural case for your human KJV-only reasoning/teaching so you seek to attack those believers who disagree with your opinions. You have not proven from the Scriptures that the KJV is inspired. You are adding to the Scriptures something that it does not state nor teach.

It is the wisdom from God above (James 3:17) that teaches believers not to show partiality to one exclusive group of doctrinally-unsound Church of England critics in 1611. It seems that KJV-only advocates want believers to commit sin by showing respect of persons or partiality to the KJV translators (James 2:9).

 

[Logos1560]

These Bible version discussions would not even be taking place some 50-60 years ago for the most part.

Perhaps you are not as well-informed as you may think that you are.

Some Bible version discussions took place around 150 years ago around the mid-1800's.

Some Bible believers back in the 1600's even pointed out examples of some episcopal bias in the KJV.

 

[Logos1560]

Too bad they can be so bewitched.
.

Perhaps you close your eyes to the scriptural truths that would point out that you can be deceived by believing assertions that are not true.

You fail to prove that Bible believers who are accepting clear scriptural truths that contradict human, non-scriptural KJV-only reasoning are supposedly "bewitched."

 

[Michael Hollner]

Perhaps you are not as well-informed as you may think that you are.

Some Bible version discussions took place around 150 years ago around the mid-1800's.

Some Bible believers back in the 1600's even pointed out examples of some episcopal bias in the KJV.

I said 'for the most part.' I think sometimes you have a tendency to miss the context of what I am actually saying.

And you never did answer my question. Do you agree that we should be praying for each other?

Blessings.....

 

[Logos1560]

no verses from the bible which say, "only the originals are inspired."

All scripture is given by inspiration of God...
2 Timothy 3:16

You do not practice what you preach. The hypocrisy of your post is evident. You provide no verse from the Bible which says that the KJV is inspired. 2 Timothy 3:16 does not say that the KJV is inspired.

If in your human "wisdom" or reasoning, you are perhaps trying to insert "translation" into the word "scripture" at 2 Timothy 3:16, you would seem to be ignoring or avoiding the "all" in the same verse since to suggest that scripture includes translations would make this verse supposedly mean that all Bible translations are inspired. If you do not believe that all Bible translations are inspired, your human interpretation of 2 Timothy 3:16 does not at all support your human claim for the KJV.

Why do you seem to demand that I have to accept your human reasoning or human wisdom?

 

[SGO]

Blessings to you from our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.

And waiting for the verses that say ONLY the originals are inspired.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God...
2 Timothy 3:16

And by the way,
please show some bible verses that say all preserved scripture is not inspired.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God...
2 Timothy 3:16

Let God be true ...

 

[Logos1560]

KJV translator Lancelot Andrewes wrote: “We hold good works necessary to Salvation; and that faith without them saveth not” (Two Answers to Cardinal Perron, p. 29).

I wonder why some seem to want believers to commit sin by having respect to persons (James 2:9) for the Church of England makers of the KJV even though one of them made the above claim.

 

[SGO]

KJV translator Lancelot Andrewes wrote: “We hold good works necessary to Salvation; and that faith without them saveth not” (Two Answers to Cardinal Perron, p. 29).

I wonder why some seem to want believers to commit sin by having respect to persons (James 2:9) for the Church of England makers of the KJV even though one of them made the above claim.

You left out the verses from the bible that say only the originals are inspired.

But then you go and talk about a translator.

Is that bible verses?
Newp.

You are the great avoider.

How about old Westcott and Hort's personal doctrinal statements or testimonies about how they received Christ or their praising Jesus Christ as their personal Savior?

No?

Won't find any of the latter.

The KJV is not the Church of England, it's a bible. You want to make the KJV a church organ too?

You start practicing what you preach as a "bible believing man" and show some verses from the book you believe in that actually state "only the originals are inspired".

How can you be born again if you don't think the bible, any English bible, is alive?

For the word of God is quick,
and powerful,
and sharper than any twoedged sword,
piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit,
and of the joints and marrow,
and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hebrews 4:12

Being born again,
not of corruptible seed,
but of incorruptible,
by the word of God,
which liveth and abideth for ever.
1 Peter 1:23

 

[Logos1560]

KJV-only advocates are the great avoiders. They do not practice what they preach. They do not present any positive, consistent, sound, just, true, scriptural case for their non-scriptural claims for the KJV. Instead human KJV-only reasoning would contradict scriptural truth by in effect attempting to bind the word of God to the inconsistent textual criticism decisions, Bible revision decisions, and translation decisions of one exclusive group of Church of England critics in 1611, showing partiality or respect to persons to that one group.

It has not been demonstrated that I have not avoided any scriptural truth. I have accepted all the truth that the Scriptures state about themselves. I advocate the consistent, just application of scriptural truth, and I advocate the use of consistent, just measures/standards in agreement with scriptural truth. I do not claim to be perfect so if I misunderstand and misapply any scriptural truth I am willing to be shown that from the Scriptures.

On the other hand, human KJV-only reasoning does not apply scriptural truth consistently and justly, and it involves the use of divers measures [double standards] that are not applied consistently and justly. KJV-only advocates make unrighteous judgments that involve the use of divers measures [double standards]. A modern KJV-only view conflicts with the Bible's doctrine of truth with its dependence upon fallacies as it assumes unproven premises by use of the fallacy of begging the question.

He is the Rock, his work is perfect, for all his ways are judgment, a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he (Deut. 32:4)

as the truth is in Jesus (Ephesians 4:21b)

thy word is truth (John 17:17)

Thy word is true from the beginning; and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth forever (Psalm 119:160)

all thy commandments are truth (Psalm 119:151b)

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar (Romans 3:4a)

That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie (Hebrews 6:18a)

and that no lie is of the truth (1 John 2:21c)

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour (Exodus 20:16)

Thou shalt not raise a false report (Exodus 21:1a)

Wherefore, putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another (Ephesians 4:25)

I have chosen the way of truth (Psalm 119:30a)

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good (1 Thessalonians 5:21)

God is the God of truth (Deut. 32:4, John 3:33, 1 John 5:20), Jesus Christ is the truth (John 14:6, Eph. 4:21), and the Holy Spirit of God is the Spirit of truth (John 16:13). The word of God is truth (John 17:17, Psalm 119:151, Psalm 19:9, Psalm 119:160, Psalm 119:142). According to the Scriptures, God would be the source and determiner of all truth and sound reason (Deut. 32:4, 1 John 5:20, John 14:6, John 16:13, Isa. 1:18). God is not only the source of truth; He is very truth itself. If God has spoken, (and He has), He has spoken truthfully and logically for the God of the Scriptures is not irrational, illogical, or insane. God cannot lie or contradict Himself (2 Cor. 1:18, Titus 1:2, Heb. 6:18); therefore, God would not violate the chief rule of reason (logic) [the law of non-contradiction]. Because reason (logic) came from God, God can reason with man whom He created (Isa. 1:18), and man can reason with each other (1 Pet 3:15, Acts 17:2, 1 Sam. 12:7). God is the God of knowledge, understanding, and wisdom (1 Sam. 2:3, Prov. 2:6, Rom. 11:33, Prov. 22:12, James 1:5, Ps. 147:5, Isa. 40:28).

 

[Logos1560]

How can you be born again if you don't think the bible, any English bible, is alive?

Do you ask an improper question that questions my salvation?

Do you hold the extreme position that adds the the Scripture the opinion that use of the KJV is necessary for someone to be saved or born again?

 

[SGO]

Hey! Did I say you were not saved or that the KJV is the only bible that has the living words of God?

You just want to derail the conversation with trick questions, Mr. Lion.

Talk about skipping you bring your rope and concrete chalk every time.

How about you finally show the verses that say ONLY the originals are inspired?

That way you can say no bible today is inspired.

You not only want to kill inspiration or the living words of God in the KJV but all other English bibles as well.

That would make you happy?

All those verse you quoted in post #58, are they alive?


No born again by the living word of God if it is not inspired.

That of course would mean that the both of us are not saved and anyone alive and professing Christ is not saved either.

You very happy fellow now.


All scripture is given by inspiration of God...
2 Timothy 3:16

... the words I speak unto you, they are spirit and they are life.
John 6:63

Man shall not live by bread alone but by
every word
that proceedeth
out of the mouth of God.
Matthew 4:4

Heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away.
Matthew 24:35

Being born again,
not of corruptible seed,
but of incorruptible,
by the word of God,
which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Peter 1:23

The word of our God shall stand for ever.
Isaiah 40:8

Blessings to you from the living word of God.