Let God Be True

[OldRegular]

HP: This is a hard testimony to just read once and let go. I cannot help but wonder what sin it was that had such a hold on you that you were not willing to let it go. Nothing short of a guilty conscience would keep one up like that at night. That must have been a miserable time in your life, knowing what to do but unwilling to do it.

Even till the age of 17 you were still struggling with the same sin it would seem from your own testimony. There is something about sin that is true without exception. The longer one persists in a certain sin the more sins that develop in ones life. By seventeen your conscience had to be working overtime considering the knowledge of the truth you once had concerning salvation from sin. Sin simply never stays stagnate. It grows and festers.

Now you finally meet one with a message that you seem to get some relief from. Security in Christ, that’s the ticket. Now I can be secure in spite of the sin is what your testimony ‘appears’ to say to me. I do not see any testimony of deliverance from the problem that had existed for years causing the guilty conscience, just a new cover for an old and still prevalent problem with the guilt from a besetting sin.

Tell me I am wrong. Tell me that your new found friend and his message delivered you from your besetting sin(s) and that now you live free from the sins that pained your conscience, having been delivered from the power of those sins to enslave you. Have you been delivered or have you just found a doctrine that applies suave to the guilt of sin?

HP
You are deliberately twisting what MACE16 said in his testimony. Read it again! He said nothing about being beset by a particular sin that he was not willing to let go. He simply stated that; well let him tell you again in his own words:

Originally Posted by MACE16
Hey, Pilgrim. Well, here is my experience. I was saved at the age of 13 in an Assembly of God church. Now, I was taught that Christ had forgiven my sins, but from that point on, I had to live the life. Part of living the life was not sinning. So, in my 13 year old brain, I thought I had this. First week goes by, I think a few things I should not have, and I say a few things I should not have. At this point, guilt gets to me, as it should. Well, instead of being told about confession and repentance to restore fellowship, I am now told that I have backslidden and need to be restored in the faith.

So, I go find a sinner's prayer and read that, convinced I needed to be saved again. After about a year, this grew quite wearisome. I was saved, then lost, saved, then lost, etc.. There is no feeling, to me, that is worse than laying down at night trying to make sure you have recalled all of your sins in fear that if they are not confessed, I may very well wake up in Hell. In a sense, Christ was not a Savior at that point, He was a cruel taskmaster ready and willing to whack me at any time for messing up. My obedience was given out of fear, much like the obedience a beaten dog gives.

Long story short, by age 17 I met a Baptist youth minister through an athletic league. A mentor relationship grew out of this. I would speak to him about my struggles with this particular subject. Eventually, through my own study, I came to the realization of my security in Christ. How wonderful it is to serve a loving, forgiving Father.

My obedience to Him is now out of love, not out of fear. This changes my outlook on everything. I still maintain a very healthy fear of God, and I think all believers should. But it is a wonderful feeling, to lay my head down at night at realize that I am His and nothing can ever change that.

Since I have yet to meet only one sinless person, Jesus Christ; MACE16 states very succinctly what everyone who does not believe in Eternal Security must go through in their "Christian" life: "So, I go find a sinner's prayer and read that, convinced I needed to be saved again. After about a year, this grew quite wearisome. I was saved, then lost, saved, then lost, etc.."

 

[OldRegular]

Posted by Old Regular
All these Scripture show that those who are saved by the Grace of God are kept Eternally Secure by Him. If you cannot understand that from these Scripture then you are to be most pitied and nothing I can add to them will change your mind.

Non Response from HP
My, that’s right out of the old play book. For some strange reason your pity fails to move me. Suppose I would say the same things back to you? What would it prove? How have I shown the strength of what I believe is true? What would I have added to meaningful debate by such remarks? What if I simply listed a litany of Scripture and used your playbook in reverse?

In a debate OR, it does little to no good to simply list a bunch of Scriptures without any interpretation given as to their meanings. Do you think I have not read and studied the passages you mention? I can assure you that there is a great difference among differing schools of thought on these passages. Scripture is of no private interpretation, and to assume it is in a debate is less than meaningful.[My Bold]

Again, save your pity. What some novice debater might attempt to uitilize in a debate with an Atheist is useless here.

Try taking one or two of the best pasages and give us your interpretation of them. Then we can have a meaningful debate. If you are not willing to do this, a debate forum is most likely not the best place for you traverse.

HP

You say: " Scripture is of no private interpretation, and to assume it is in a debate is less than meaningful." I agree! Read these Scripture and yield to the teaching of the Holy Spirit. Do not be bound by the erroneous doctrine in which you have been indoctrinated.

In reality, you are not seeking the truth that is plainly revealed in these Scripture I posted, rather you just want to quibble over my words and call that debate! If you want to quibble then quibble with the words of Jesus Christ. It is Him, as the Apostle John, stated that you are calling a liar. Again, the Scripture I presented, particularly from the Gospel of John leave no room for any interpretation other than that those who are saved are kept Eternally Secure by GOD Himself. Anyone who does not believe that will find himself in the same position that MACE16 found himself before he came into the knowledge of GOD's truth:

"After about a year, this grew quite wearisome. I was saved, then lost, saved, then lost, etc.."

HP
You also state:"Again, save your pity. What some novice debater might attempt to uitilize in a debate with an Atheist is useless here." I am not sure that you are not to be pitied more than an Atheist. They will at least give a straight answer. If you were really interested in debate rather than quibbling over my words you would respond to the Scripture I posted and my the question I posed.

 

[Jedi Knight]

I think if you present you scriptures and cannot convince the other party,we should agree to disagree. BUT if the other is asking sincerely to learn and not to quarrel over the matter that should be done with patients and love. Proverbs 13:10 Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.:1_grouphug:

 

[OldRegular]

I think if you present you scriptures and cannot convince the other party,we should agree to disagree. BUT if the other is asking sincerely to learn and not to quarrel over the matter that should be done with patients and love. Proverbs 13:10 Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.:1_grouphug:

There are many Scripture passages that are open to discussion. However, there are certain passages that are not. One of these is John 14:6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. A second is John 10:30. I and [my] Father are one.

Now these passages are either true or not. They are not open to argument. Jesus Christ is one with the Father or He is not. Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father or he is not. One must choose! If Jesus Christ is not trustworthy then we are of all people most miserable.

The following passages that were in the OP fall in the same category. They teach that God will keep Eternally Secure those who are His through Jesus Christ. They are either true or not but they are certainly not open to argument. Again, if they are not true then Jesus Christ is not trustworthy and we are of all people most miserable.


Hebrews 7:22-28 KJV
22. By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24. But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27. Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people’s: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

John 6:35-40, KJV
35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:27-30, KJV
27. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
30. I and [my] Father are one.

Romans 8:28-30, KJV
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.