Let it Be - The Beatles.

[Marcia]

Here's the context of what Jesus said from Matthew 6:

25 “Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? [7] 28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, 29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. 34 “Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

The context is that God provides and to have faith in him and to seek him and his righteousness. That is not what Paul is saying. Not even close.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Travelsong:
That kind of knowledge is usually trivial to me. Personal information can at times be beneficial for understanding exactly where the artist was coming from and give greater insight into the intended meaning but more often this is not the case, especially in rock music.

There you go stuffing another strawman. I never said the song was Catholic, or even that it was about Mary. I simply said the song uses Catholic imagery.

It lends itself easily to that interpretation because the role of Mary is to comfort and dispense wisdom. Some would say that's the role of a mother, as well.

Absolutely! Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds may actually be a song glorifying escapism through psychotropic substances, from the artist's perspective. If that is the case, it certainly isn't self evident in the lyrics themselves.

Yes, I see your strawman getting larger, and your desperation to distract me with insults directed at my intelligence increase exponentially with each post.

I originally posted a long and detailed post but now that you're making these accusations that I've "insulted your intelligence" when anyone can go back and read my posts to see that I haven't, you've sunk to Aaron's level and I refuse to have that sort of conversation.

You've heard the last of it from me.

If you want to believe that the song is an homage to the Virgin Mary, that's up to you.


Now Playing: Rhonda Vincent – “Back Home Again”

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Marcia:
Here we go again. Those are the 2 choices you gave me. See my previous post where I quote you.

Actually, that's not true.

I never said anything about "deceptive happines".

I simply asked you whether it was better for Paul to remember his mother's advice or to allow his circumstances to get the better of him.

The context is that God provides and to have faith in him and to seek him and his righteousness. That is not what Paul is saying. Not even close.

Well then, there you go.


Now Playing: Jeff Autry – “Foothills”

 

[Pennsylvania Jim]

I don't like songs that leave you endlessly guessing as to their meaning. Many of the songs of the '60's (the ones with intelligible lyrics) were like this.

It's not deep, just vague.

I guess the author would be flattered that their words spur endless discussion. To me, though, it's no credit to claim that you were able to cause confusion.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Mike McK:
I originally posted a long and detailed post but now that you're making these accusations that I've "insulted your intelligence" when anyone can go back and read my posts to see that I haven't, you've sunk to Aaron's level and I refuse to have that sort of conversation.

When you feel the need to repeatedly imply that I'm crazy or going way out out on a limb by creating an associateion with Jack Trick and dial-a-truth, then yes, you are in fact insulting my intelligence.

Originally posted by Mike McK:
You've heard the last of it from me.

K, Bye.

Originally posted by Mike McK:
If you want to believe that the song is an homage to the Virgin Mary, that's up to you.

Keep stuffing that strawman. I've never even implied that. Why don't you take a moment to go back and review exactly what I've said.

 

[Eric B]

It seems to me that it is an ambiguous reference that could be for either or both. We have our natural mothers, and Mary was supposed to be our spiritual mother, according to John 19:27. But it recently came to mind, Luke 11:27-8 "And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and
said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare you, and the breast which you have sucked.
But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it." I always thought this was a bit cold, towards this woman's praise; but It just dawned on me that this is speaking against devotion to his mother (far more than the other passage could be perceived as encouraging it). He simply deflects the focus to those who keep the word of God. That's what people should be doing instead of looking up to His mother.

Anyway; if his mother's name is Mary; then that all the more goes along with the parallelism. McCartney is most likely a nominal Anglican; which is alot like Catholicism; and I believe still maintains the Mary devotion. Being nominal; the Beatles of course have delved into eclecticism; so "Let it Be" probably does have some Eastern concept in there.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by Eric B:
It seems to me that it is an ambiguous reference that could be for either or both.

Of course. There's no point in arguing for a concrete meaning. That's the purpose of ambiguous or abstract art. Would the impact of Let It Be have been lessened if Paul made sure to let everyone know he was speaking about his mother? Of course it would have. Inclusive, universal language lends itself to a wide possibility of meanings.

I'm just saying the imagery is there and it's understood by anyone who is familiar with the Catholic religion.

Mike:

Actually, he's not referring to the Virgin Mary, as is commonly assumed, but to his mother, who's name was Mary.

This quote acknowledges a commonly perceived meaning for the song. Why do people see Catholic imagery in the song? Because it lends itself easily to that interpretation.

 

[TexasSky]

Paul was not Catholic, and in fact, Paul was rather anti-faith. The song is about his mother.

 

[StefanM]

Ok, we have to get philosophical here.

Which determines meaning?

A. The author

B. The text

C. The reader

Depending on which of these presuppositional guidelines you choose, your answer may differ from another's.

If A, then one must go to what the author said (which could be a lie--we can't read thoughts), and the song either:
1. Refers to his mother and only his mother
2. Refers to his mother in a veiled allusion to the Virgin Mary
3. Refers to the Virgin Mary and not his mother
4. Refers to the Virgin Mary AND his mother equally
5. Refers to the Virgin Mary and gives subtle reference to his mother
6. Refers to none of the above

If you choose B...

We can only go with what the song says--it means "mother Mary," and any attempts to define it further are determined by the reader and/or author and not the text itself, and would therefore be inappropriate under this presupposition.

If you choose C. . .

It means whatever it means to you, even your friend's poodle named Mary.

 

[Travelsong]

Originally posted by StefanM:

It means whatever it means to you, even your friend's poodle named Mary.

Absolutely. Some will look at a Campbell's soup can and see lunch, others might see a profound statement about art and consumerism.

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

Just think of all the trouble it could have saved if Paul's mom had been named Gertrude?

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by StefanM:
Ok, we have to get philosophical here.

Which determines meaning?

A. The author

B. The text

C. The reader

Depending on which of these presuppositional guidelines you choose, your answer may differ from another's.

If A, then one must go to what the author said (which could be a lie--we can't read thoughts), and the song either:
1. Refers to his mother and only his mother
2. Refers to his mother in a veiled allusion to the Virgin Mary
3. Refers to the Virgin Mary and not his mother
4. Refers to the Virgin Mary AND his mother equally
5. Refers to the Virgin Mary and gives subtle reference to his mother
6. Refers to none of the above

If you choose B...

We can only go with what the song says--it means "mother Mary," and any attempts to define it further are determined by the reader and/or author and not the text itself, and would therefore be inappropriate under this presupposition.

If you choose C. . .

It means whatever it means to you, even your friend's poodle named Mary.

Actually, context has a lot to do with the meaning as well. If I posted a reply in this thread that said simply, "Mike is just a two-dimensional, unthinking, bloated cyclops," of whom do you think I would be referring?

And if confronted about it, had I said, "No, no! I didn't mean Mike McK, I meant Mike Wazowski of Monsters, Inc. fame. I can't be responsible for the assumptions you all dream up in your own heads!" would you believe me?

Travelsong et al have done a masterful job of demonstrating that even if Paul didn't mean the Virgin Mary, he intended to draw on that imagery. After all, what else would anyone think?

And if Mike can't see that, then maybe he really is more like a cyclops than I imagined—no depth perception.

 

[Mike McK]

Hey, Aaron,

Razzamatazz.


Now Playing: Jonathan Edwards – “Sailboat”

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

MikeMcK and Marcia:

I am quite fond of both of you, and think that you are both hitting on some good points.

Mike is correct that "Mary" was Sir Paul's mother.
Marcia is probably correct with that whole tie-in to the Eastern religions. Remember that trip to see the Maharishi?
The Beatles were famous for having specific meanings in their songs. "Dear Prudence" was written specifically to someone (I think it was Mia Farrow's sister?). "Blackbird" was about civil rights, despite the birds chirping in the background. "Martha My Dear" was about Sir Paul's Old English Sheepdog. "Julia" is about John Lennon's mother and her untimely death. "Hey Jude" was written by Sir Paul to Julian Lennon. The list goes on and on.

As for the reference to "Lucy in the Sky," Sir Paul already addressed that with the BBC, along with "Got to Get You Into My Life" (marijuana) and "Daytripper" (acid).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/music/3769511.stm

BTW, Mike: I love KD Lang (seen her twice), along with several of the artists that were "now playing" during the course of this discussion.

The very best to both of you and your families,

BiR

Now Playing: "Mr. Zimmerman" - Nashville Skyline

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by Baptist in Richmond:
MikeMcK and Marcia:

I am quite fond of both of you, and think that you are both hitting on some good points.

Thank you. I enjoy your posts a lot, as well.

BTW, Mike: I love KD Lang (seen her twice), along with several of the artists that were "now playing" during the course of this discussion.

Never seen her live, but I do enjoy her music.

The "Now Playing" thing is something that we do on another board I post on, since we're too lazy to start a "what are you listening to now" thread, like most message boards have.

Now Playing: "Mr. Zimmerman" - Nashville Skyline

Excellent choice.


Now Playing: Stephane Grappelli – “Live at Carnegie Hall”

 

[av1611jim]

"To me, it's a huge compliment that a bunch of kids think I might be up to smoke a bit of dope with them."
Paul McCartney

 

[Eric B]

"Got to get you into my life" too?
Shows that you'll never know with them!

 

[Songbird]

What about the song his lovely partner --John Lennon wrote---

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us (oops forgot the rest)

Sounds like he was pushing for taking no responsibilties for our actions.

I am a stickler for lyrics and often dissect to see if there are any hidden meanings.

You'd be surprised...

 

[Travelsong]

Actually he believed that religion was a burden and that people can find peace on their own. That's pretty much what Imagine was about.

 

[Eric B]

My wife and I have debated that song. It seems full of emotion, and I always tried to look at it from the perspective of a sad, confused soul looking for a better existance in a crazy world, rather than the more conspiratorial notion "Oh; he's just trying to abolish all rules and consequences and justify free living". (I used to hear some R&B female's version of it from the 80' more).

We toss Hell around; and use it to try to shake people into conversion, but is that a good thing? (Well, one school of soteriology says it is; or at least it's early proponents; for the sake of God's glory and our appreciation of salvation). So why should people want there to be a Hell? So I could see people envisioning a perfect world, where there is no Hell, and no people scaring people with it. Of course, if God had not allowed sin to exist, it would have been a perfect world, and there would be no Hell!
I even saw parallels with his "no religion too" and many tracts I have found, and even handed out. For they too have put down "religion". It is man's way of trying to reach God, and it has caused a lot of problems, and is often false (and most people in the world can't tell the false from the true). "It's not a 'religion'; it's a relationship" all these tracts and preachers say.
But how many people know all of this? So the perfect Kingdom God will bring in, will not have "religion"!
"And many people shall go and say, Come all of you, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more". (Is.2:3,4) No more religion, wa, and all the rest of that stuff.

So what I found ironic is that the whole wish of the song are things God has promised us. But people do not see this in organized Christian "Religion"; (they only see the very problems of war --back then almost the entire Church was pushing Vietnam, etc; hypocrisy, etc.) so thus look for it in new age, leftist politics, or whatever else they trust in. They want peace, but do not see the Prince of Peace. We hide behind conspiratorial rhetoric, but we need to show them the Prince of Peace more, rather than taking sides in the ideological (and sometimes physical) warfare of the age, as if that will bring in the Kingdom.