Let Jesus be Jesus and Preterism Rings and Reigns all through the Bible

[Logos1]

Let's have a pity party

This is where I come from too....it is fine (even admirable in a weird way) to be utterly conviced and confident of a debateable Theological position....but dismissive (against the Godly witness of some VERY admirable men who are gifted with the Word)...is short-sighted at least. I have no problem, although I disagree vehemently, with "Pre-terism", but to then call all adherents of an alternative P.O.V. ...reproof at minimum...it is Satanic, .

Ah, HOS only two post later and there you are again—you didn’t stay away very long. Came back so you and bronko nagurski could have a pity party did you.

You know maybe the reason why satanic and vicious snake comments are something I can laugh at and you get upset so easily is that I know those comments are false while you realize with each new post that futurism is a bankrupt theology and an empty shell.

 

[Logos1]

Aw, you poor little victim

There are many fine Christians on both side of this issue, yet you say those not on your side are blasphemous. You will face those words one day, I would be careful. What goes around comes around. So all the great preachers down thru the years, many of them way more spiritual and scholarly than you, and were used by God, I might add, are guilty of blasphemy? I think not. Jesus rebuked his disciples for thoughts like that, and if you haven't been rebuked, maybe you should check up and see just how much you are walking in the Spirit, no offense.

If a thousand years are as a day with the Lord, how is 2000 years not soon?

2 Peter 3:3-9 (HCSB)
3 First, be aware of this: Scoffers will come in the last days to scoff, living according to their own desires,
4 saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? Ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they have been since the beginning of creation.”
5 They willfully ignore this: Long ago the heavens and the earth were brought about from water and through water by the word of God.
6 Through these waters the world of that time perished when it was flooded.
7 But by the same word, the present heavens and earth are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 Dear friends, don’t let this one thing escape you: With the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.

Furthermore, I have asked for the scripture that proves Christ came back already, specifically in A.D. 70 as your ilk asserts, but I have read none. Now maybe I missed it, but I ask you again: where is the scripture? Also, why didn't John tell us about Jesus coming again in A.D. 70 in the book of the Revelation? It was more than likely written after A.D. 90, yet John tells us about the things that WILL come to pass, which includes, btw, the coming of Christ.

Finally, I am not saying there are not problems with any eschatological view, and there are with dispensationalism as well. But don't be so smug as to think that you have it all figured out, and everyone else is blasphemous. That is utterly ludicrous.

Wait here and I’ll get you a teddy bear. Are we feeling a wee bit convicted by the straight up and using nothing but the words of your fellow futurist to compare your actions to blasphemy. I didn’t say the things you spout on about in the first paragraph—but I do see a pattern here. If I don’t say what you want then you just put the words in my mouth just the way when bible prophecy doesn’t say what you want you just put the words in Jesus and the Apostles mouth—hmmm, one should be care—they could face their words one day.

But I sense you wanted to say more bronko so why don’t you get over trying to be a victim and tell me what you really think of me—go for it bro—I want your true feelings—just speak up with abandon here just between us gals.

Now for you cut and paste scripture please reference yesterday’s post 93 on page 10 of this thread and you will have your answer—you are just re-stating what HOS already said without any new points or arguments so I’ll just refer you back to your answer.

Why is two thousand years not soon—LOL—by your logic then the three days it took Christ to rise from the grave would mean he was really saying he would rise 3,000 year later—preach on bronko—why don’t you hold to that position.

You also are just repeating idle questions since you got your answer to why the bible doesn’t say Christ came back already since he came back in 70 AD and all the bible was written before then. I refer to your whole answer in the previous post—do you actually read what I write or do you just spend your time trying to play the victim role.

 

[asterisktom]

All depends WHICH pretierism is held, as partial has been allowed/seen as being a viable option, but Hyper/full version ALWYS seen as being outside 'bounds of orthodoxy", and NOT to be held!

Well, I suppose I would belong to your "hyper" designation. It is certainly not outside the bounds of Scripture, whatever tradition may assert about it.

For the record: the only thing I believe still to come is personal meeting with God per Hebrews 9:27. That, by necessity, is still future.

 

[Logos1]

Don’t be a Victim of Futurism—I think we are up to episode VI

Another proof that preterism is the only true view of prophecy is that Mystery Babylon in Revelation is Old Covenant Jerusalem which is being destroyed with the return of Christ in its judgment in 70 AD.

I don’t have time to write all the proofs of this tonight but will cover a few and do a few more later.

The great city was compared to a harlot. There was only one and that was Jerusalem.

Rev 17: 5- 6 5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations.”
6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

This ties in to its OT reference
Isa 1:21 How the faithful city has become a whore, she who was full of justice! Righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers.
(verse 1 of the chapter tells us it is speaking of a vision concerning Judah and Jerusalem and in the HSCB before v 16 the topic is the purification of Jerusalem)

Where Christ was Crucified

Rev 11:8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified.

And referred to as Sodom in its OT Reference

Jer 23:14 But in the prophets of Jerusalem I have seen a horrible thing: they commit adultery and walk in lies; they strengthen the hands of evildoers, so that no one turns from his evil; all of them have become like Sodom to me, and its inhabitants like Gomorrah.

Sodom & Egypt judged by God as was Babylon. Jerusalem judged by God. Jerusalem referred to as Sodom and Egypt where the blood of the saints was on their hands.

Type of Clothing

Rev 18:16 Alas, alas, for the great city that was clothed in fine linen, in purple and scarlet, adorned with gold, with jewels, and with pearls!

OT Reference (where Ezek ch 1 v 1 says explain Jerusalem's abominations to her) : Eze 16:10-12 I clothed you also with embroidered cloth and shod you with fine leather. I wrapped you in fine linen and covered you with silk. 11 And I adorned you with ornaments and put bracelets on your wrists and a chain on your neck. 12 And I put a ring on your nose and earrings in your ears and a beautiful crown on your head.

Don’t be a victim of futurism

 

[Bronconagurski]

I have no feelings toward you at all. It's your words that are ludicrous, L1

Wait here and I’ll get you a teddy bear. Are we feeling a wee bit convicted by the straight up and using nothing but the words of your fellow futurist to compare your actions to blasphemy. I didn’t say the things you spout on about in the first paragraph—but I do see a pattern here. If I don’t say what you want then you just put the words in my mouth just the way when bible prophecy doesn’t say what you want you just put the words in Jesus and the Apostles mouth—hmmm, one should be care—they could face their words one day.

But I sense you wanted to say more bronko so why don’t you get over trying to be a victim and tell me what you really think of me—go for it bro—I want your true feelings—just speak up with abandon here just between us gals.

Now for you cut and paste scripture please reference yesterday’s post 93 on page 10 of this thread and you will have your answer—you are just re-stating what HOS already said without any new points or arguments so I’ll just refer you back to your answer.

Why is two thousand years not soon—LOL—by your logic then the three days it took Christ to rise from the grave would mean he was really saying he would rise 3,000 year later—preach on bronko—why don’t you hold to that position.

You also are just repeating idle questions since you got your answer to why the bible doesn’t say Christ came back already since he came back in 70 AD and all the bible was written before then. I refer to your whole answer in the previous post—do you actually read what I write or do you just spend your time trying to play the victim role.

You want to bring this down to a fleshly arugument. Why don't we just meet somewhere and let my pound your face and get it over with? Would that make you happy? I mean, why stop at name calling? Why don't we just take it to the level that you seem to want to go? The reason is that real Christians don't act that way, and I refuse to get caught up in your carnal desires. I was using hyperbole, lest you say I threatening you, so don't get excited. My views are not blasphemous. Period. You saying so just propagates your ignorance for all to see.

 

[Bronconagurski]

Well, I suppose I would belong to your "hyper" designation. It is certainly not outside the bounds of Scripture, whatever tradition may assert about it.

For the record: the only thing I believe still to come is personal meeting with God per Hebrews 9:27. That, by necessity, is still future.

And then what? What happens after death and the judgement?

 

[asterisktom]

And then what? What happens after death and the judgement?

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

 

[Logos1]

How pious we have gotten and still good for a few chuckles

You want to bring this down to a fleshly arugument. Why don't we just meet somewhere and let my pound your face and get it over with? Would that make you happy? I mean, why stop at name calling? Why don't we just take it to the level that you seem to want to go? The reason is that real Christians don't act that way, and I refuse to get caught up in your carnal desires. I was using hyperbole, lest you say I threatening you, so don't get excited. My views are not blasphemous. Period. You saying so just propagates your ignorance for all to see.

You said I was accusing you of blasphemy and you are all on board with HOS doing your dirty work for you calling me satanic and a vicious snake then when I invited you to be man enough to do your own dirty work and tell me how you feel about me you all of sudden lost your stomach for it and got religion and hid behind the old it was just hyperbole trick—cute bronko.

Then as usual you put a few more words in my mouth and accuse me of wanting to resort to fist a cuffs ( I believe a close examination of my comments will prove that accusation as empty as futurism)—I think this vacillating between “pious and religious” bronko and “yea go get’em HOS” bronko is a hoot and a half.

I suppose it would be too much to ask for you to pick one bronko and settle there.

What we have here is a wonderful microcosm of the duplicity that is the essence of futurism.

On one hand you have to admit Jesus said he was coming back soon and on the other hand you try to weasel around it by saying a thousand years is like a day so Christ was really talking out of both sides of his mouth and meant a long time before His coming back.

Either side you guys are pretty amusing.

 

[Bronconagurski]

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Ok, you will be with the Lord, but what will you be doing? Meanwhile, I take it life on earth as we know it now goes on perpetually? If not, then what? I really don't get this view, I am not being facetious.

 

[asterisktom]

Ok, you will be with the Lord, but what will you be doing? Meanwhile, I take it life on earth as we know it now goes on perpetually? If not, then what? I really don't get this view, I am not being facetious.

I know you are not being facetious.

In all honestly, I can't say what life will be like in perpetuity on Earth. I don't think anyone knows. But I do know that Scripture says "the Earth abides forever".

Having been a dispensationalist for two or three decades, believe me, I understand how different this view can be. Part of the difference is in the very outlook. Preterism makes much of the spiritual nature of Christianity. And we view the language of Scripture to be more spiritual/metaphorical, less literal. "Streets of gold", "1000 years", "River of Life" are all metaphors, I believe, for things that are very important.

But, to get to your first question, what will we do there; I have no idea - other than it will be glorious. How can it not be?

I suspect that this answer is unsuitably vague. If so, feel free to hit me up again with more questions. It is early afternoon here in China. I think I still have some typing left in me today before I call it a night.

 

[Bronconagurski]

I know you are not being facetious.

In all honestly, I can't say what life will be like in perpetuity on Earth. I don't think anyone knows. But I do know that Scripture says "the Earth abides forever".

Having been a dispensationalist for two or three decades, believe me, I understand how different this view can be. Part of the difference is in the very outlook. Preterism makes much of the spiritual nature of Christianity. And we view the language of Scripture to be more spiritual/metaphorical, less literal. "Streets of gold", "1000 years", "River of Life" are all metaphors, I believe, for things that are very important.

But, to get to your first question, what will we do there; I have no idea - other than it will be glorious. How can it not be?

I suspect that this answer is unsuitably vague. If so, feel free to hit me up again with more questions. It is early afternoon here in China. I think I still have some typing left in me today before I call it a night.

"But, to get to your first question, what will we do there; I have no idea - other than it will be glorious. How can it not be?"

Now I understand that part. No matter what our views, being with Christ forever has to be glorious. To tell you the truth, I am not sure what we will be doing if the pretrib, premill view is the correct one. Most preachers say we will rule and reign with Christ on the earth during the millenial, but after that is vague as well. I have always wondered if God might create another universe with life on it. I guess that is far-fetched. One more thing, I have read the heavens and earth will pass away with fervent heat, and God will create a new heaven and earth. How does your view deal with that?

 

[asterisktom]

"But, to get to your first question, what will we do there; I have no idea - other than it will be glorious. How can it not be?"

Now I understand that part. No matter what our views, being with Christ forever has to be glorious. To tell you the truth, I am not sure what we will be doing if the pretrib, premill view is the correct one. Most preachers say we will rule and reign with Christ on the earth during the millenial, but after that is vague as well. I have always wondered if God might create another universe with life on it. I guess that is far-fetched. One more thing, I have read the heavens and earth will pass away with fervent heat, and God will create a new heaven and earth. How does your view deal with that?

The new heavens and earth topic is one of the turning points in my thinking that led me from Amill to Preterism. I noticed in my studying of Isaiah that the foundational passages seemed to coincide with the work Incarnational work of Christ, not as some other event still future.

The elements (stoicheia) melting with fervent heat, I believe, are the fundamental building blocks of the whole Jewish system. With the events of AD 70 they did indeed, literally and figuratively, melt with fervent heat. Because the very means of observation of the Jewish Law were now gone - the Temple, altar, all the objects of correct sacrifice - there was now no return possible to the old way.

And yet God's Word promised to the Jews a continuity (not a return after a long period) of both priesthood and kingship. See, for instance, Jer. 33 (esp. vs. 15-17; 25-26). Other passages also come to mind.

As far as the "elements" is concerned, if there is any doubt about the Preterist view (I'm sure there is) I would ask you to look up the word stoicheia, and then do your own comparison. See how the word is used elsewhere.

The same with "heavens and earth". The exact phrase has its beginnings in Isaiah and has a specialized meaning that must not be forgotten when we come to those few NT occurrences.

I meant to write sooner, but I have a wife who insists on actually using:type: the computer too. How inconsiderate. :smilewinkgrin:

At any rate, I hope this helps advance the discussion.

 

[Logos1]

I wanted to add my two cents to your question earlier but we lost power.

Ok, you will be with the Lord, but what will you be doing? Meanwhile, I take it life on earth as we know it now goes on perpetually? If not, then what? I really don't get this view, I am not being facetious.

I’ll agree with you that is a topic preterist literature has not done an adequate job of explaining.
We are living in the world without end as Isaiah 45:17 and Ephesians 3:21 reference.

The big change is in 70 AD at Christ’s return—at that point instead of going to Sheol, the Pit or whatever holding tank spirits go to Christians are then upon death immediately ushered into heaven to dwell with the Lord for eternity.

Until you die you live on earth as before. The major change here, of course, is that the Holy Spirit indwells Christians.

This system continues as long as whatever World without end means—you can ponder whether that means until the sun burns out or speculate that by the time that many billions of years pass by that man will invent sufficient space travel to leave earth and dwell on another planet or will have spread through much of the universe and be dwelling in multiple solar systems by then. It makes for interesting speculation.

I wish the upcoming Preterist study bible would address the specific point of your question in some detail. Many would find it very helpful. Maybe as eloquent and wise a voice as Tom’s can prevail upon them to do so.

 

[Yeshua1]

I’ll agree with you that is a topic preterist literature has not done an adequate job of explaining.
We are living in the world without end as Isaiah 45:17 and Ephesians 3:21 reference.

The big change is in 70 AD at Christ’s return—at that point instead of going to Sheol, the Pit or whatever holding tank spirits go to Christians are then upon death immediately ushered into heaven to dwell with the Lord for eternity.

Until you die you live on earth as before. The major change here, of course, is that the Holy Spirit indwells Christians.

This system continues as long as whatever World without end means—you can ponder whether that means until the sun burns out or speculate that by the time that many billions of years pass by that man will invent sufficient space travel to leave earth and dwell on another planet or will have spread through much of the universe and be dwelling in multiple solar systems by then. It makes for interesting speculation.

I wish the upcoming Preterist study bible would address the specific point of your question in some detail. Many would find it very helpful. Maybe as eloquent and wise a voice as Tom’s can prevail upon them to do so.

When the second coming happens, there will be a resurrection of ALl saints living and death at that time...

Did THAT event happen 'in the dark" AD 70?

 

[Logos1]

Can you say scripture reference boys and girls

When the second coming happens, there will be a resurrection of ALl saints living and death at that time...Did THAT event happen 'in the dark" AD 70?

Sure you can I knew you could.

Ok yeshua, I'll bite on that--which verse would we be referring to that gives you that nugget of information. I know you probably have it in the John Macarthur study bible--but commentary is not scripture. I hate it for futurist when they get commentary and scripture mixed up.

 

[Logos1]

Proof that Babylon in Revalation is Jerusalem II

I finally have time to finish this

Persecution of the Saints

Rev 18:20-21 20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, for God has given judgment for you against her!” 21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon the great city (reference Rev: 11:18 where Lord crucified) be thrown down with violence, and will be found no more. (The great city where the Lord was crucified knits together Jerusalem and Babylon)

NT Reference:

Luk 11:50-51 50 so that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be charged against this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it will be required of this generation.

Notice Jesus specifies it will be this generation (the current generation—not a future generation) that is charged with the blood of the saints. This is a clear line drawn between Jerusalem to Babylon.

Given to the Gentiles and Three & Half Years

Rev 11:2 2 but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months.

NT Reference:

Luke 21:24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

OT Reference:

Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the stream; he raised his right hand and his left hand toward heaven and swore by him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time, and that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end all these things would be finished.

Note an end to all these things would be finished. This is clearly a reference to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD and clearly and end to prophecy in the bible—it goes no further so we know from the inspired word of the Holy Spirit that all bible prophecy must be fulfilled in 70 AD or else the Holy Spirit would have been wrong—that would be a completely impossible position for any Christian to take to dispute the words of the Holy Spirit.

Don’t be a victim of futurism.

 

[OldRegular]

Thus we have two proofs from the Bible that Jesus was using language familiar to the High Priest to speak of cloud comings similar to the OT use of the term. This totally refutes any future coming of Christ.

And all this time I thought that full preterists believed that Jesus Christ returned in 70AD! Just goes to show you??????:tonofbricks:

 

[Logos1]

Say what?

And all this time I thought that full preterists believed that Jesus Christ returned in 70AD! Just goes to show you??????:tonofbricks:

??????????

 

[Logos1]

Don't be a victim of futurism VII

While the book of Daniel tells us that it is to be closed up because it is not for the immediate future. 12:4

But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

The shortness of time and soon fulfillment is a constant theme all throughout the book of Revelation. It is emphasized in the beginning, middle, and end. It is at hand, shortly coming to pass, and coming quickly.

If it was thousands of years in the future then it would have been irrelevant to the then suffering generation of Christians and a cruel trick on the part of the Holy Spirit to inspire John to write to its audience that relief was to arrive soon.

This forces us to either believe that the coming of Christ (in judgment against Jerusalem and destroying the power of the Jewish leadership to inflict suffering on the first century Christians) actually did happen soon after the book of Revelation was written or else we too can expect to be fooled by the Holy Spirit.

Not many of us would believe the Holy Spirit purposely tricks and misleads us hence we are forced to accept Christ did come soon after the Revelation was written—we have to face the truth that His return was just different in nature than what we were taught about the nature of his return.

To challenge the soon coming of Christ is to blasphemy the Godhead and deny the inerrancy of the bible. If any part of the bible can’t be trusted then all of it can be legitimately questioned as being honest, accurate, and dependable.

Don’t be a victim of futurism.

"No Dispy will claim that it is not, in fact, the case that an (even cursory) perusal of the New Testament doesn't often convey something of a "soon-ness" or "emminent-ness" to Christ's return. We already know that.....We don't debate it"…….Heir of Salvation

 

[Logos1]

Don't be a victim of futurism VIII

There are numerous verses that tell us that the Apostles are writing in the last times.

1 Peter 1:20 ESV

He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you

Here we see “was made manifest” is past tense and it is in the last times. We have already noted all the soon coming verses so it is obvious that the term last times or end times as it sometimes comes up is referring to the last days of the old covenant not the end of time or something that is in our future.

You can’t read the bible as a whole and think the Apostles are telling us Christ was going to come back thousands of years in the future. There isn’t one single verse in the bible to make that case or statement.

If the Apostles were actually inspired by the Holy Spirit and the bible is inerrant then the inescapable conclusion can only be that Christ came back in 70 AD.

Don’t be a victim of futurism.

"No Dispy will claim that it is not, in fact, the case that an (even cursory) perusal of the New Testament doesn't often convey something of a "soon-ness" or "emminent-ness" to Christ's return. We already know that.....We don't debate it"…….Heir of Salvation