Let's Cut to the Chase -- Does God Will Rebellion Against Himself?

[tinytim]

I disagree, Tim. God cannot violate His own character. Willing rebellion against Himself violates the character of God which John gave us: God is love. It violates that He so loves the world that He gave His only Son. It violates that He is not willing that one should perish.

You put in the escape, "If He wills it", and so I'm pretty sure I know how you will come back about His will...nevertheless, God cannot violate His own character -- He could not will that.

I was actually trying to be funny....:laugh:

It didn't work... I agree with you.

 

[webdog]

Amen Helen :thumbs:

 

[npetreley]

Quote:
Originally Posted by webdog
Can I punish my son for doing something I specifically told him not to do...but made him do?


npetreley: You could, but it wouldn't be the same thing. You're not God.

That response does not work, npetreley. Jesus used the father/child relationship a number of times to help explain about God's relationship with us.

"Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!"
Matthew 7:9-11

So webdog's response was right on target.

IMO, your response has nothing whatsoever to do with the subject.

 

[Pastor Larry]

But Jesus was NOT murdered. He gave up His own life:

Acts 2:23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
Acts 4:10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead-- by this name this man stands here before you in good health.
Acts 3:14-15 But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses.

It seems to me that God, who must know what he is talking about, disagrees with you. “Put to death” unjustly, as Jesus was, is murder.

Helen:

Does God control everything? Yes.
Larry: So he controls the sinful actions of man? Aren't you contradicting yourself?

Helen: You are taking me out of context, first of all... Second, God controls the expressions of men's desires. But He does not control their desires -- that is where man is free to want what he will.

So God does not control everything, contrary to your previous statement. You can’t have it both ways. If “everything” means “everything,” then he controls men’s desires. If he doesn’t control men’s desires, then he doesn’t control “everything,” unless you want to define “everything.”

Sound familiar? It should. It is virtually the same argument your side uses against Calvinism. And it is exactly what you do in the following. It shows that you are inconsistent and will do virtually anything to defend your theology.

I am not aware of anyone arguing here that man is free to do anything he wants to do. That is obviously not true.

Actually, theologically, we argue that. Freedom is the ability to do what he wants to do in the realm of his power. Man is free to chase his desires.

You say that sin and rebellion against Him are part of His perfect decreed will. In that case the Bible is full of massive and very disturbing contradictions. Sin is not part of God's perfect will and that could not be more plain in the Bible than it is. It angers Him and He speaks against it consistently, as do those who represent Him.

I think these contradictions only exist in our finite minds. We can’t put God in a box. If God does not decree everything, including sin and rebellion against him, then Scripture is not true, and either the Bible is not inspired, or God lied. I don’t like either option.

The Bible does not say that no one seeks after God. This is a misrepresentation of that Psalm and Paul's quotation of it. In fact, the Bible commands people to seek God.

Yes, it commands people to seek God. And states that no one does.

If you check Psalm 14 you will find it is the fool who says in his heart there is no God. THEY are corrupt, THEIR deeds are vile. None of THEM does good. It is the SONS OF MEN who refuse to seek God, and they are consistently referred to in that psalm as the fools who deny God and the evildoers who delight in evil. This is most definitely NOT the majority of even unbelievers. Please read and quote from context, not from your pre-existing philosophy.

You are simply changing the word of God to fit your theology. If you read Psalm 14 and Romans 3, you are clearly shown to be wrong. You are picking and choosing from the Psalms (incidentally proving that you do not take context in Scripture. Let’s look briefly at several points.

Psalm 14:2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God.


The word “any” is referring to those who do not seek God. God does not find “any” who do not seek him. You want to limit that to be something less than any (something you accuse the Calvinists of doing). He says he does not find “any” who seek after him. You say there are some who do. Now who should we believe?

Furthermore, v. 4 tells us it is “all the workers of wickedness” that are in view, not just some. Do you believe that all men are workers of wickedness or are there some without sin?

Vv. 5,6 show that the contrast is the righteous generation, the captive Jacob. God is setting up two groups of people, not three, as you would have us believe.

Lastly, as if there were more proof needed, Paul quotes this passage to prove the assertion of Romans 3:9, that Jew and Gentile alike are under sin, and v. 23, that all have sinned. It will not do to try to change the passage to fit your theology. Paul, like David, is establishing two groups of people, not three.

However, over and over again the Bible tells people to seek God,

Yes, and the same Bible tells us that sin has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not seek after God. You want to change that to fit your theology. We should all reject that as dishonoring to God’s revelation.

In other words, Larry, to use that verse out of context is a lie.

I agree. And as I demonstrated, you are guilty of this very thing. You are ignoring Paul’s argument about the universality of sin, which is the context of Romans 3.

The Bible is very clear about who it is who do not seek the Lord: the wicked and the fools

Yes, and the Bible is clear that everyone is born in this state. In fact, Psa 14:3 says the same thing that Isa 53:6 does. Psa 58:3 further confirms that the facts of Psa 14 apply to all men when it says, “The wicked are estranged from the womb; These who speak lies go astray from birth.”

Finally, when you said you affirmed all the verses I quoted in the post before I know that you affirm them -- as long as you can change the meaning of the words and the clear meaning of the verses. I'm very aware of the games Calvinists play with words. It is frustrating and discouraging.

Helen, honestly, I have great respect for you in your work in creationism, but this is downright shameful. You have changed the words of Rom 3 and Psalm 14 to fit your theology, and then turn around and accuse of playing games with words. How can you? Can you not see the inconsistency in that?

But if you are an honest man, you will never again use the quote about no one seeking the Lord the way you have above.

I am an honest man, and because of that I must use it as Paul did, to affirm the sinfulness of both Jew and Gentile, the fact that all have sinned and fallen short of God’s glory. It would be dishonest to use it as you have, and I have shown that.

The Bible is very clear about who that group is, and it is not the average unsaved man and woman. Those people are encouraged to seek God. .

So you have a group of people who not encouraged to seek God?

Again, we see the level to which you will stoop to defend your theology. You misuse Scripture and in effect have compromised the gospel. This is an issue of great seriousness. It is disturbing to see this kind of teaching in the name of Christ.

 

[Helen]

"And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit."
Matthew 27:50

"Jesus called out with a loud voice, 'Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.' When he had said this, he breathed his last."
Luke 23:46

"When he had received the drink, Jesus said, 'It is finished.' With that, he bowed his head and give up his spirit."
John 19:30

Larry, it may have been referred to as a murder in Acts, but both Jesus and the writers of the above Gospels make it very clear that Jesus gave up His own spirit and was not murdered.

As far as the rest goes, you are picking and choosing those verses out of context which you want to support the Calvinist position and then called me shameful and dishonest for bringing that into question and showing where people are commended for seeking the Lord and also encouraged to do just that. You consider me dishonest and I consider what you are teaching to be blasphemy.

We'd better leave it at that.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Larry, it may have been referred to as a murder in Acts,

So isn't that enough? Does Acts not count? When God inspired Peter to call it a murder was God wrong? Was God misleading people? Or was it murder? Or is there a third option somewhere that I don't know about?

but both Jesus and the writers of the above Gospels make it very clear that Jesus gave up His own spirit and was not murdered.

Jesus giving up his life does not mean that he wasn't murdered. God said it was murder and held those people responsible for it.

As far as the rest goes, you are picking and choosing those verses out of context which you want to support the Calvinist position

No, I have interacted with every verse you and others have put forth. I have defended my view from the context. To the contrary, I just took Psa 14 and Romasn 3 and showed that the context was the universality of sin, and showed how you redefined words and ignored context to defend your theology.

and then called me shameful and dishonest for bringing that into question and showing where people are commended for seeking the Lord and also encouraged to do just that.

You also called me dishonest. I did not, to my recollection, call you shameful. I called your approach to Scripture shameful. I absolutely agree that people are commended and encouraged to seek the Lord. That is not the point of disagreement.

You consider me dishonest and I consider what you are teaching to be blasphemy.

Here's the difference: I have shown from Scripture where you have not rightly handled it. You have not shown from Scripture where I teach blasphemy. At every turn, I have used the Scripture to defend my belief.

We'd better leave it at that.

That's fine, but remember, Scripture deserves to be handled as the Word of God, not as a tool to prove our own theology. I am willing to answer to Scripture. I have wrestled through these passages and found your explanations insufficient. I have shown why. And you have ignored the context. I can't find that convincing.

 

[johnp.]

"When he had received the drink, Jesus said, 'It is finished.' With that, he bowed his head and give up his spirit."
John 19:30

Once upon a time there were three men tossed into a furnace. It is God who gives and it is God who takes away, if He called it murder then it was murder. That Christ knew when to give up His Spirit comes as no surprise as the One closet to Him returned after cutting Him off while He paid for my sins.

Jesus came with the fallen nature of men, He hungered and got tired. The whips hurt and caused blood and His face stung as He was slapped why do you think crucifixtion wouldn't kill Him Helen? The death He died He died as a Man.
If you want to think of it as a suicide then it was suicide to venture into Jerusalem hailed as King. He had authority for that. Courting martyrdom is a sin, Matt 10:23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another.

john.

 

[Helen]

Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, Revelation 13:8. Who murdered Him then?

 

[johnp.]

Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, Revelation 13:8. Who murdered Him then?

Men. Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

It says that He was put to death by wicked men Helen.

john.

 

[Helen]

You didn't answer my question.

 

[npetreley]

You didn't answer my question.

Huh? He answered it. What do you want, first and last names?

 

[examiningcalvinism]

Bismark

To Bismark:

Consider Jeremiah 32:35: "They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."

True or False: In this verse, God openly states that it indeed entered His mind that they should commit this abomination?

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/OT/Jer32_35.html

 

[npetreley]

True or False: In this verse, God openly states that it indeed entered His mind that they should commit this abomination?

True or false: God's foreknowledge is incomplete and He can be taken by surprise.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

Lol

Before I answer your question, answer mine:

True or False: In this verse, God openly states that it indeed entered His mind that they should commit this abomination?

(que the Jeopardy song)

 

[Helen]

Huh? He answered it. What do you want, first and last names?

Are you trying to tell me that the Roman soldiers were around at the creation of the world so that they could kill Jesus?

If He is the Lamb SLAIN FROM THE FOUNDATION/CREATION OF THE WORLD, then He was not murdered from God's viewpoint. From man's viewpoint the intent and function was attempted murder, to say the least, but the Gospels very plainly state that Jesus GAVE UP His spirit. He also stated, as I quoted, that HE had the authority/power to give up His life and then to take it up again.

For the purposes of this thread, this is important, because God's sacrifice was a gift, not a sin. It paved the way for our salvation at tremendous cost to Him. It was Him loving us, voluntarily giving up His own life that justice might be satisfied and our sins atoned for.

God does not ordain sin, as examiningcalvinism has shown so clearly in the verse he quoted.

God has given us free desires -- not free actions, however. We may will what we choose, whether or not we are able to carry it out. Free will has nothing to do with freedom to act, and perhaps -- if I read one of the responses correctly earlier -- this is one of the major confusions of Calvinism, confusing desire with action.

And whatever choices God has allowed us to make, yes He has known about ahead of time, but that is because He is outside of time and knows all that has and will happen. That does not deny, however, our real freedom to make the choices. He determines how far He will allow us to go in expressing them, in accord with what is good for those who love Him. But our hearts' choices are what will be judged first.

And, in the long run, it is all totally within the realm of HIS sovereignty and will. He is much, much bigger than the choices and freedoms He has allowed us.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

Helen

To Helen,

I agree with you about God's omniscience. God not only knows what we could do, but also what we would do, from an infinite number of variations. It is a God whose omniscience is off the charts of human understanding. Consider two verses in particular, as it relates to something called Middle Knowledge:

1st Corinthians 10:13: “No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.”

How does God know what you are able to handle, if He does not have Middle Knowledge? He knows the choices of every man, given an infinite number of alterations in his environment, with an infinite number of variables interacting with him.

Matthew 11:20-24: "Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. 'Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.'”

How does God know that they would have responded to His miracle ministry, in contrast to the Israelite cities, had it been presented to them? How does He know what could and would have happened, unless His knowledge extends far beyond what actually occurs?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, Revelation 13:8. Who murdered Him then?

Clearly that is a statement of intention, seen as complete in teh mind of God, yet not having taken place yet. This is pretty common in Scripture, particularly in prophetic passages. It is hardly relevant to the question at hand here.

 

[npetreley]

Before I answer your question, answer mine:

True or False: In this verse, God openly states that it indeed entered His mind that they should commit this abomination?

(que the Jeopardy song)

Scripture says it didn't enter His mind. The question is, what does it mean that "it never entered His mind" mean? Does it mean God never thought of it? That it took him completely by surprise?

Okay, I answered your question, now you answer mine.

 

[johnp.]

Helen.

Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, Revelation 13:8. Who murdered Him then?

There's only two Suspects, the Father or the Holy Spirit. Motive and oppotunity must be investigated.

Acts 2:23 This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge;...

...and you,...

...with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

Men Helen. What are you saying? Was Christ dead at creation?

ISA 53:10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

One might be tempted to ask at this point, "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

john.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

N Petreley

To: N Petreley,

The answer is on my writeup:

http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/OT/Jer32_35.html

True or False: Jeremiah 32:35 tells us that God didn’t know what they would do?

False. This verse is not telling us what never entered God’s mind that they would do. Rather, it tells us what never entered God’s mind that they should do. God is not denying His omniscience. He is denying responsibility.

Jeremiah 32:35: "They built the high places of Baal that are in the valley of Ben-hinnom to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire to Molech, which I had not commanded them nor had it entered My mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin."