Let's discuss purgatory

[David Michael Harris]

Christ paid the full price for our sins, God does not punish us/Christians after death, although you may have a hard time before it with his discipline and correction.

Depending on how you do.

My 2 cents so far.

Purgatory is wrong as far as I can see.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Christ paid the full price for our sins, God does not punish us/Christians after death, although you may have a hard time before it with his discipline and correction.

Depending on how you do.

My 2 cents so far.

Purgatory is wrong as far as I can see.

First understand the doctrine before judging. You can disagree with it but do it for the right reasons. I disagree with it because its speculative.

 

[annsni]

The doctrine of purgatory has nothing to do with "paying" for your sins. It is about theosis. Which has to do everything with sanctification. Purgatory is a final process of sanctification. It's not directly spoken of in scripture. It may be alluded to in scripture discussion of sanctification but ultimately its speculative and therefore a doctrine of it should not be required. However, sanctification is a real issue. Christians should seek to be sanctified in all we do.

According to Catholic.com, "The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030)"

However, we cannot achieve any sort of holiness to enter the joy of heaven apart from Christ. There is not one thing we can do. When we stand before the throne of God, it will not be by any merit that we've earned but because of the righteousness of Christ. We have that righteousness the moment we believe on Him - not after death. Scripture tells us that it is appointed for man once to die and then the judgment. It doesn't say that it is appointed once for man to die and then he gets purified over time THEN comes the judgment.

I agree that sanctification is a real thing and it is something that we will never achieve on our own. It is God who sanctifies us. 1 Corinthians 6:11 says "But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

 

[lori4dogs]

The doctrine of purgatory has nothing to do with "paying" for your sins. It is about theosis. Which has to do everything with sanctification. Purgatory is a final process of sanctification. It's not directly spoken of in scripture. It may be alluded to in scripture discussion of sanctification but ultimately its speculative and therefore a doctrine of it should not be required. However, sanctification is a real issue. Christians should seek to be sanctified in all we do.

This has been stated over and over and yet people continue to say that purgatory is about 'paying for sins.'

 

[lori4dogs]

'However, we cannot achieve any sort of holiness to enter the joy of heaven apart from Christ. There is not one thing we can do.'

Apart from Christ we cannot achieve any sort of holiness. Agreed!

 

[annsni]

This has been stated over and over and yet people continue to say that purgatory is about 'paying for sins.'

Let's see:

You die with sin not forgiven by confession and repentance.

You go to purgatory to be "purified" and made holy.

Then when that's done, you go to heaven.

So, how is this different from "paying for your sins"?

 

[David Michael Harris]

First understand the doctrine before judging. You can disagree with it but do it for the right reasons. I disagree with it because its speculative.

I have, and my Christian doctrine that my life is hidden with Christ in God over rules this roman error.

If you start down the path of the nitty gritty rather than just accepting Scripture as it says then you will end up away from the teaching of Christ.

 

[DHK]

This has been stated over and over and yet people continue to say that purgatory is about 'paying for sins.'

Purification ends at death.
Sanctification ends at death.
Justification ends at death.
If you are not sanctified, purified, made perfectly holy by the blood of Jesus Christ at the time of your death, you are not saved and will end up in the Lake of Fire. That is what the Bible teaches. That is the plain truth.
At salvation Christ forgave all our sins. His blood covered them all.
If Purgatory is necessary then the blood of Jesus Christ was not sufficient and Christ's death was all in vain. What a horrible doctrine!!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

According to Catholic.com, "The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030)"

However, we cannot achieve any sort of holiness to enter the joy of heaven apart from Christ. There is not one thing we can do. When we stand before the throne of God, it will not be by any merit that we've earned but because of the righteousness of Christ. We have that righteousness the moment we believe on Him - not after death. Scripture tells us that it is appointed for man once to die and then the judgment. It doesn't say that it is appointed once for man to die and then he gets purified over time THEN comes the judgment.

I agree that sanctification is a real thing and it is something that we will never achieve on our own. It is God who sanctifies us. 1 Corinthians 6:11 says "But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

Annsi and Michael Harris,
Please read post 278. Its right out of the Catachism and it exactly what the catholics are talking about and its about sanctification not "paying" for your sins. Read it carefully because it explains it.

Michael Harris, you miss the point of my post. I will not say a Muslim believes something he does not like Allah is a moon god. That is not Islamic belief. I don't agree with Islam but I don't agree with it for what it actually believes not what someone has told me erroniously that it does believe. That is what I was saying with regard to purgatory. I don't agree with it because its speculative and not evident. That is not to say whether it exist or not. I just don't believe a doctrine should be made of it.

 

[David Michael Harris]

I always thought 1 Corinthians 6:11 was past tense?

God deals with you afterwards as Christians. It's the world that cops for it big time afterwards.

He deals with us now so we will not be condemned with the rest of the world.

No punishment after death as I see, just glory, and all through His wonderful Grace.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I always thought 1 Corinthians 6:11 was past tense?

God deals with you afterwards as Christians. It's the world that cops for it big time afterwards.

He deals with us now so we will not be condemned with the rest of the world.

No punishment after death as I see, just glory, and all through His wonderful Grace.

1 Corinthians 6:11

And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

is past tense when I read it as well. But keep in mind the Catholic attitude towards Salvation and Justification. Unlike us they believe its a process you are living out your salvation and are constantly being Justified until all is said and done so from their soteriological point of view its also current. But either past or current to future the consept is that we are constantly undergoing a sanctification process to which I believe when we die and see God face to face any desire or misappropiated wordly affection will instantly drop away. But again I speculate that though I can show verses to support my view. For me its like being born again. When I was born again I immediately wanted everything for Christ. As time went on I found I had to struggle with myself daily subjecting (or attempting to) myself to God's will. I think the catholics focus on the latter rather than the former.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Did you not read the CCC quotes I just put in?

Yes, I did, but I don't believe they supercede or negate the CCC passages I quoted to you.

You conviently gloss over those to purposely misrepresent what the Catholics are saying.

No, I didn't "gloss over them". They're irrelevant, so I simply didn't bother to go off on a tangent. Nothing in the passage I cited for you makes any such distinction between sins, or says that it has anything to do with sanctification.

Do you know what "expiation" means?

Expiation is a part of justification, not sanctification.

 

[David Michael Harris]

Our faith is tested when we are alive.

God does not punish after death.

Salvation is instantaneous in my opinion.

I will say no more.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Yes, I did, but I don't believe they supercede or negate the CCC passages I quoted to you.



No, I didn't "gloss over them". They're irrelevant, so I simply didn't bother to go off on a tangent. Nothing in the passage I cited for you makes any such distinction between sins, or says that it has anything to do with sanctification.

Do you know what "expiation" means?

Expiation is a part of justification, not sanctification.

To a Catholic Justification and Sanctification go hand in hand. Your reframing the debate. and Yes I do know what expiation means and I understand context as well. And just to prove my point you said

No, I didn't "gloss over them".

initially leading me to believe you paid attention but then you followed up with

They're irrelevant

which means you disregarded it all together. Trent must be understood in context as does the CCC. The Catachism position is explained as is trent in the text I quoted but it doesn't agree with what you want to believe that they believe so you disregard it. Which is not a fair debate. You keep insisting something that doesn't match up with what they believe. Its like me saying you make an Idol of the bible. You say no I don't. I say do you read it every day? Do you pray with it in your hands or lap at all? If you do you're worshiping it. This is the same type of argument you are using against the Catholics.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

To a Catholic Justification and Sanctification go hand in hand.

Then why are you trying to seperate the two?

Expiation of sins is expiation of sins, whether it's for justification or sanctification and if they're the inseperable, then when you say expiation of sins for sanctification (which is still heresy), then you are by necessity saying expiation of sins for justification, as well.

[Childish ad homs omitted]

Trent must be understood in context as does the CCC.

But you're making up a context to suit your religious beliefs, rather than looking at the existing context.

The Catachism position is explained as is trent in the text I quoted but it doesn't agree with what you want to believe that they believe so you disregard it.

No, I don't disregard it because it isn't what I want to believe, I disregard your twisting of the CCC and Trent because that isn't what they say.

You keep insisting something that doesn't match up with what they believe.

But they say that they believe it. Why would they lie about what they believe?

Its like me saying you make an Idol of the bible. You say no I don't. I say do you read it every day? Do you pray with it in your hands or lap at all? If you do you're worshiping it. This is the same type of argument you are using against the Catholics.

No, this isn't the type of argument I'm using at all. The only way this would be comparable is if I actually came out and said "I MAKE AN IDOL OUT OF THE BIBLE".

The Catholic Church has stated that it believes that the purpose of Purgatory is for sinners to expiate their sins. Period. The Catholic Church is the authority on what the Catholic Church teaches. You're not. Get over it.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Then why are you trying to seperate the two?

Expiation of sins is expiation of sins, whether it's for justification or sanctification and if they're the inseperable, then when you say expiation of sins for sanctification (which is still heresy), then you are by necessity saying expiation of sins for justification, as well.





But you're making up a context to suit your religious beliefs, rather than looking at the existing context.



No, I don't disregard it because it isn't what I want to believe, I disregard your twisting of the CCC and Trent because that isn't what they say.



But they say that they believe it. Why would they lie about what they believe?



No, this isn't the type of argument I'm using at all. The only way this would be comparable is if I actually came out and said "I MAKE AN IDOL OUT OF THE BIBLE".

The Catholic Church has stated that it believes that the purpose of Purgatory is for sinners to expiate their sins. Period. The Catholic Church is the authority on what the Catholic Church teaches. You're not. Get over it.

Well,

Then why are you trying to seperate the two?

I haven't in the frame of this debate.

Expiation of sins is expiation of sins, whether it's for justification or sanctification and if they're the inseperable, then when you say expiation of sins for sanctification (which is still heresy), then you are by necessity saying expiation of sins for justification, as well.

You conviently leave out the 2 classifications which Catholics express in their catachism and that expiation of sins is in referrence to the 2nd of these consequences not the first. You combine them in the argument.

But you're making up a context to suit your religious beliefs, rather than looking at the existing context

This isn't my religous beliefs at all. I've already expressed my personal opinion on this thread to Michael.

But they say that they believe it. Why would they lie about what they believe?

again you take their comments out of context.

No, this isn't the type of argument I'm using at all. The only way this would be comparable is if I actually came out and said "I MAKE AN IDOL OUT OF THE BIBLE

Actually forcing beliefs onto them that they do not hold is that same type of thing you are doing.

The Catholic Church has stated that it believes that the purpose of Purgatory is for sinners to expiate their sins. Period

Again you leave out the context of the 2 catagories of consequences of sins and apply the first as well as the last.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Well, I haven't in the frame of this debate.

Yes, actually you have. You have stated that it's referring to sanctification, not justification.

You conviently leave out the 2 classifications which Catholics express in their catachism and that expiation of sins is in referrence to the 2nd of these consequences not the first.

No, neither passage I quoted made any such distinction.

again you take their comments out of context.

No, actually, I copy and pasted them verbatem.

Actually forcing beliefs onto them that they do not hold is that same type of thing you are doing.

But I'm not forcing beliefs on them. I quoted them verbatem and am going by what they say they believe.

Again you leave out the context of the 2 catagories of consequences of sins and apply the first as well as the last.

And, again, I've already addressed this.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Yes, actually you have. You have stated that it's referring to sanctification, not justification.

Where did I say "Sanctification, not justification"?

No, neither passage I quoted made any such distinction.

My point exactly. Its a distinction Catholics make and to understand what they are talking about you must first understand this consept.

No, actually, I copy and pasted them verbatem.

with out context. I can post all sorts of scripture verbatum and make it say anything I want, but with context the story changes.

But I'm not forcing beliefs on them. I quoted them verbatem and am going by what they say they believe.

You've quoted them out of context. Like I said previously

And, again, I've already addressed this.

Where?
.........................................

 

[JohnDeereFan]

Where did I say "Sanctification, not justification"?

You really need to make up your mind on this. Once and for all: do you believe that the passages I cited were referring to sanctification or sanctification and justification?

My point exactly.

So when I say it, you disagree but now you're saying that it was your point all along?

with out context. I can post all sorts of scripture verbatum and make it say anything I want, but with context the story changes.

I posted every word. There is no such "context" that exists outside of the statement.

You've quoted them out of context. Like I said previously

NO! This is a lie. I quoted the entire passage both times. If you really believe I quoted them out of context, then you go back and show us the passages and show us which parts you believe I left out.

 

[Matt Black]

OK, here's what I believe about purgatory: I disagree with the Catholic Church's teaching that emphasises the 'unpaid-for sin' aspect of the concept; to me that undermines the sufficiency of the atonement - as far as I'm concerned, Christ and only Christ has paid for and is capable of paying for my sins. But I also believe in the necessity of some kind of post-mortem sanctification/theosis, given that it is most unlikely that I at least will be completely sanctified when I pop my clogs, unless the Holy Spirit does some very hard work between now and then. That's why I keep asking what people mean by 'glorification'; it seems to me that the mention of it at least admits of the possibility of incomplete sanctification at our momento mori and hints at a method as to how this problem do be solved. Now, I am speculating here, because no one here has as yet explained what they understand 'glorification' to mean, but I suspect that they believe it to mean the removal of our sinful nature at/immediately after death. If that is the case, then really we are much closer to being on the same page on this point than perhaps we realise: we can hopefully acknowledge (a) that for most of us at least our sanctification will be unfinished on our death-beds and (b) that it will be completed either at death or afterwards by the Holy Spirit. Now, we can disagree and debate about whether that 'completion' will be an instant event or a more lengthy process, or whether it happens at the momento mori or afterwards, but that to my mind is unimportant and vain speculation; as with the finer points of eschatology, I am content to remain cheerfully agnostic on this issue and confident that God will sort it out when my time comes.