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Let's discuss purgatory

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J

JohnDeereFan

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Matt Black said:
OK, here's what I believe about purgatory: I disagree with the Catholic Church's teaching that emphasises the 'unpaid-for sin' aspect of the concept; to me that undermines the sufficiency of the atonement - as far as I'm concerned, Christ and only Christ has paid for and is capable of paying for my sins. But I also believe in the necessity of some kind of post-mortem sanctification/theosis, given that it is most unlikely that I at least will be completely sanctified when I pop my clogs, unless the Holy Spirit does some very hard work between now and then. That's why I keep asking what people mean by 'glorification'; it seems to me that the mention of it at least admits of the possibility of incomplete sanctification at our momento mori and hints at a method as to how this problem do be solved. Now, I am speculating here, because no one here has as yet explained what they understand 'glorification' to mean, but I suspect that they believe it to mean the removal of our sinful nature at/immediately after death. If that is the case, then really we are much closer to being on the same page on this point than perhaps we realise: we can hopefully acknowledge (a) that for most of us at least our sanctification will be unfinished on our death-beds and (b) that it will be completed either at death or afterwards by the Holy Spirit. Now, we can disagree and debate about whether that 'completion' will be an instant event or a more lengthy process, or whether it happens at the momento mori or afterwards, but that to my mind is unimportant and vain speculation; as with the finer points of eschatology, I am content to remain cheerfully agnostic on this issue and confident that God will sort it out when my time comes.
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From some of the comments in this thread, it looks like Baptist churches are really dropping the ball when it comes to teaching doctrine.

I find that really disappointing.
 
Thinkingstuff

Thinkingstuff

Active Member
JohnDeereFan said:
From some of the comments in this thread, it looks like Baptist churches are really dropping the ball when it comes to teaching doctrine.

I find that really disappointing.
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See, unfortunately you think I believe in Purgatory. I don't which I've explained. I'm just debating you because you're not debating what Catholics actually believe about purgatory rather your debating what you believe they believe. You purposely leave out the 2 consequences of sins that Catholics look at when discussing purgatory.

This is what I believe. Purgatory is speculative theology. Much charged against catholics are speculative in nature. There is a reason the Orthodox and Copts don't hold to these doctrines. I don't buy into Purgatory. I believe to be absent from the body is to be present with the lord and to be present with the lord automatically dispences with all things that are related to sin like a light shining in the room. The Darkness flees and we have all eternity to mature in the light. However, since I debate Catholics all the time I have an inkling as to what they believe and what they do not believe. And its kind of irritating when I see the same old charges that have been dealt with repeated ad infinitum. If you want to deal with purgatory in a catholic debate you must start with the definitions. Sin and the Consequences of sin. Understand their definition of Sanctification and Justifaction are different. Then build the argument rather than take pot shots at aspects that don't necissarily flow. Every wonder why Lori4dogs keeps defending by saying "I don't believe that"? Yet you insist. Build your argument.
 
J

JohnDeereFan

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Agnus_Dei said:
JDF can't...he doesn't know how to think...only told what to think...there's a difference...

In XC
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I'm not going to sink to your level, but I really do think it's unfortunate that you choose to represent your religion by engaging in such childish personal attacks.
 
A

Agnus_Dei

New Member
JohnDeereFan said:
I'm not going to sink to your level, but I really do think it's unfortunate that you choose to represent your religion by engaging in such childish personal attacks.
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LOL!!!!...and you just refered to Matt Black as "ignorant" in your number 305 post above...get a life.

In XC
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M

Matt Black

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I was going to say the same: surely the JohnDeereFan who posted:

JohnDeereFan said:
there are still some Baptists here who are as ignorant about basic Christian doctrines as you are.
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cannot be the same JohnDeereFan who posted
JohnDeereFan said:
I really do think it's unfortunate that you choose to represent your religion by engaging in such childish personal attacks.
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"Kettle? I've got the pot for you on line 3. Says you're black..."
 
J

JohnDeereFan

Well-Known Member
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Thinkingstuff said:
I'm just debating you because you're not debating what Catholics actually believe about purgatory rather your debating what you believe they believe.
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No, I'm debating the difference between what the Catholic Church states in it's official documents and what the Bible teaches.

Yes, I do believe that You purposely leave out the 2 consequences of sins that Catholics look at when discussing purgatory.
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Yes, I leave out all irrelevant details.

This is what I believe. Purgatory is speculative theology.
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You call it "speculative theology", the Bible calls it damnable heresy.

Every wonder why Lori4dogs keeps defending by saying "I don't believe that"? Yet you insist. Build your argument.
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No, I don't wonder and, frankly, I don't care. I've quoted the catechism verbatem and in content, as well as the Council of Trent, verbatem and in context.

Whether she agrees with them is up to her. I'm not debating her personal beliefs, but what the Catholic Church has declared that they believe.

Unfortunately, you and JohnV and Agnus Dei and Matt Black are so devoid of any rational argument and so ignorant of the most basic of Christian doctrines, that all you can do is to call me a liar and tell me that tha Catholic Church isn't qualified to state what they believe if it contradicts your heretical ideologies.

Do you know who Karl Keating is? Keating is a Catholic apologist. He's very respected among followers of that religion.

The doctrine [of Purgatory] can be stated briefly. Purgatory is a state of purification, where the soul which has fully repented of its sins, but which has not fully expiated them, has removed from itself the last elements of uncleanliness......

[Note that Keating states that the purpose of Purgatory is for the soul which has not expiated it's sins removes from itself the last elements of uncleanliness]

...When we die, we undergo what is called the particular, or individual, judgment. We are judged instantly and receive our reward, for good or ill. We know at once what our final destiny will be. At the end of time, though, when the last people have died, there will come the general judgment which the Bible refers to. In it all ours sins will be revealed. Augustine said, in <The City of God>, that "temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment." It is between the particular and general judgments, then, that the soul expiates its sins: "I tell you, you will not get out till you have paid the very last penny" (Luke 12:59)...

[Again, Keating states that the soul expiates it's own sins in Purgatory]

...Why would anyone go to purgatory? To be cleansed. "Nothing unclean shall enter heaven" (Apoc. 21:27). Anyone who has not completely expiated his sins—that is, not just had them forgiven, but "made up" for them, been punished for them—in this life is, to some extent, "unclean." Through repentance he may have gained the grace needed to qualify for heaven (which is to say his soul is spiritually alive), but that is not enough. He needs to be cleansed completely. By not admitting the doctrine of purgatory, one necessarily implies that even the slightest defilement results in the loss of the soul, yet even here below not every crime is a capital offense: "Not all sin is deadly" (1 John 5:17)...

[Again, Keating states that Purgatory is for the expiation of sins.]

...This presumes there is a contradiction between the Redemption and our suffering in expiation for our sins. There is not, whether that suffering is in this life or in the next...

[Again, Keating states that Purgatory is for the expiation of sins.]

...Some say, "God does not demand expiation after having forgiven sins." Tell that to King David. When David repented, God sent Nathan with a message for him: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die" (2 Sam. 12:14). Even after David's sin was forgiven, he had to undergo expiation. Can we expect less? Fundamentalists think the answer is Yes, because Christ obviated the need for any expiation on our part, but the Bible nowhere teaches that...

[And, yet again, Keating states that Purgatory is for the purpose of expiating sins.]

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/CATHFUND.htm
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But, of course, you know what Catholicism teaches better than Karl Keating, too.

It could do so, did souls make full and perfect use of it. But the precious blood of Christ does not cleanse the souls of men in spite of themselves. Men have to do their part by sincere repentance and by the yielding of their souls to Christ in faith and love. But there are degrees of repentance, and faith, and love. Granted perfect repentance, and faith, and love, a soul participates fully in the effects of the precious blood of Christ. All sins are then expiated, and no further expiation in purgatory will be required. But some souls have very imperfect repentance, and faith, and love; whilst others have none at all. The precious blood of Christ does its work in a soul proportionately to the disposition of that soul.
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Here is another statement from a Catholic blog:

Q: Would not the blood of Christ shed for all sinners cleanse their souls?

A: It could do so, did souls make full and perfect use of it. But the precious blood of Christ does not cleanse the souls of men in spite of themselves. Men have to do their part by sincere repentance and by the yielding of their souls to Christ in faith and love. But there are degrees of repentance, and faith, and love. Granted perfect repentance, and faith, and love, a soul participates fully in the effects of the precious blood of Christ. All sins are then expiated, and no further expiation in purgatory will be required. But some souls have very imperfect repentance, and faith, and love; whilst others have none at all. The precious blood of Christ does its work in a soul proportionately to the disposition of that soul.

http://journeytorome.wordpress.com/...art-deux-because-the-catholic-church-says-so/
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Notice that, not only does it say that Purgatory is for the expiation of sins, but compounds that heresy by teaching works-righteousness in this life, as well.

Here is the text of a homily delivered by a Catholic priest and posted on a Catholic website:

The Poor Souls are the souls of those people who died in the friendship of God. But they still have some suffering to undergo for the sins they had committed during their lives on earth. It is the infallible teaching of the Catholic Church that there is a purgatory. As the word itself indicates, purgatory is the state of those who still have to be cleansed of the penalty which they owe for their past offenses against God...

[So, here is a Catholic priest, speaking in a Catholic church, being quoted on a Catholic website, stating that those in Purgatory must suffer to cleanse themselves of their own sins.]

...In order to understand why the Poor Souls are in purgatory, as Catholics we should know what we believe about the double effect of every sin. Every time we sin we lose more or less of God's grace....

[Nothing to do with Purgatory. I just thought I'd point out this particular heresy while we're here.]

..This immediately tells us that because we are sinners we must expect to suffer in expiation for our sins. The choice we have is between patiently suffering here on earth or suffering in purgatory after our bodily death...

[Here, he states that if we fail to earn forvigeness here on Earth, that we must go to Purgatory for the expiation of our sins.]

...We can offer our bodily pains in expiation for their sins ["their" = the "poor souls in Purgatory"]....

[So, not only do people in Purgatory have to expiate their own sins, we can actually expiate their sins for them by our "bodily pains"]

...Remember that devotion to the Poor Souls is really a covenant between them and us. We pray and sacrifice for them, They can pray and suffer for us. They appreciate whatever help we give them, to lessen their suffering and to shorten their stay in Purgatory. They will continue to show their appreciation when we join them in a heavenly eternity...

http://www.therealpresence.org/chapel/poorsoul.htm
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How about the Catholic Encyclopedia? Would that be Catholic enough for you?


Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.

["...have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions". The clear implication here being that they are to continue to pay this "satisfaction" in Purgatory]

...The whole penitential system of the Church testifies that the voluntary assumption of penitential works has always been part of true repentance and the Council of Trent (Sess. XIV, can. xi) reminds the faithful that God does not always remit the whole punishment due to sin together with the guilt....

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
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J

JohnDeereFan

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Matt Black said:
I was going to say the same: surely the JohnDeereFan who posted:

cannot be the same JohnDeereFan who posted

"Kettle? I've got the pot for you on line 3. Says you're black..."
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I'm sorry you feel that way, but if someone doesn't know doctrine, then it's not an attack to say that they don't know doctrine.
 
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