Let's discuss the differing views of Biblical Election

[DaChaser1]

Yep. One on here stated God is no respecter of persons (against my saying God chooses according to His purpose) then alluded that Abram did some godly things, which was to imply why he was chosen as a rebuttal. The reference he used was of not refusing to sacrifice Isaac. The thing is, God chose Abram way before that, on His terms, which is the way it works for all of us.

Well...

You can always say that isreal at the time was 'forced" by God to reject jesus as messiah, and that "judicial hardening" was going on, which means cannot use the Gospels to support election, as was a special situation!

or can say that Prophets/Apostles were elected by God individually, as they had "special" roles/offices, but again cannot use that to support individual basis for election, by Will of God directly Himself...

I DO NOT say that, but some do!

 

[preacher4truth]

Well...

You can always say that isreal at the time was 'forced" by God to reject jesus as messiah, and that "judicial hardening" was going on, which means cannot use the Gospels to support election, as was a special situation!

or can say that Prophets/Apostles were elected by God individually, as they had "special" roles/offices, but again cannot use that to support individual basis for election, by Will of God directly Himself...

I DO NOT say that, but some do!

God knows what He's dong whether some think He's unfair or not.

I can't say that thinking Him unfair is trusting Him. Must He succomb to our reason? May it never be!

 

[DaChaser1]

God knows what He's dong whether some think He's unfair or not.

I can't say that thinking Him unfair is trusting Him. Must He succomb to our reason? May it never be!

isn't the ULTIMATE "Unfair" act ever done though was when God sent forth and Son to earth, and to diefor sinners like you and me, and take upon Himself the 'Hell" on the Cross ALL shoulfd have suffered?

was that 'fair?"

 

[Aaron]

If that were the only reason then EVERYONE would reject Jesus. The difference is whether or not they are chosen and thus the typical application of the passage in question: "many are called few are chosen." You can't avoid it. Just admit that my use of the word 'few' was completely reasonable in reference to what you believe and teach.

You've just set yourself up for another apostolic smack down. John has already told us that men reject the light because they love the darkness, and they love the darkness because their deeds are evil.

That is the reason men reject Christ. The only reason.

To assign one's non-election as a cause of rebellion is only as reasonable and logical as asserting that the reason a cat meows is because it's not a dog.

 

[Aaron]

isn't the ULTIMATE "Unfair" act ever done though was when God sent forth and Son to earth, and to diefor sinners like you and me, and take upon Himself the 'Hell" on the Cross ALL shoulfd have suffered?

was that 'fair?"

Love is neither fair nor balanced.

 

[OldRegular]

He also reserved 7000 who didn't bow their knee to Baal. Why didn't He reserve ALL of them? Because it is God who chooses.

My opinion of the 7000 is that it is not to be taken literally. The number "7" in the Bible apparently represents the perfect number. The number "1000" represents a large number of things/folks. So the number 7000 represents the total number of elect in the Northern Kingdom and exactly the total number of elect!

 

[DaChaser1]

My opinion of the 7000 is that it is not to be taken literally. The number "7" in the Bible apparently represents the perfect number. The number "1000" represents a large number of things/folks. So the number 7000 represents the total number of elect in the Northern Kingdom and exactly the total number of elect!

Think the point still applies, as there represent those whom God had reserved, chosen out from midst of a ungodly nation, the "faithful remnant" of Jewish peoples that God had chosen to set apart and redeem unto Himself...

Same principle applies to how he works tosday to call out among all nations a people unto Himself, saved by His grace alone, and by Him electing them!

 

[preacher4truth]

My opinion of the 7000 is that it is not to be taken literally. The number "7" in the Bible apparently represents the perfect number. The number "1000" represents a large number of things/folks. So the number 7000 represents the total number of elect in the Northern Kingdom and exactly the total number of elect!

That's fine that you want to discuss what the number means, but it doesn't change the point. I think numerology here is another subject altogether.

 

[Skandelon]

You've just set yourself up for another apostolic smack down. John has already told us that men reject the light because they love the darkness, and they love the darkness because their deeds are evil.

That is the reason men reject Christ. The only reason.

And why do they love the darkness while you don't?

BECAUSE GOD CHOSE YOU INSTEAD OF THEM! You can't get around it Aaron, you are just playing with semantics to try and avoid the obvious conclusions. There is nothing inaccurate with the term "preselected few" in describing Calvinistic doctrine and I think you know it. You just want to argue.

To assign one's non-election as a cause of rebellion is only as reasonable and logical as asserting that the reason a cat meows is because it's not a dog.

The fault of that logic ignores the fact that in your system we were all born as dogs. Thus to ask why some meow and others don't takes on a whole new perspective. Some were chosen by God to meow while others were not....PERIOD. You can't avoid it bro and deep down you know it.

 

[Skandelon]

Well...

You can always say that isreal at the time was 'forced" by God to reject jesus as messiah, and that "judicial hardening" was going on,

I wouldn't use the word force, anymore so than a Calvinist would in regard to the will of man. Someone being 'judicially hardened' is merely being blinded from the truth so that they will continue to do what they want. Blinding them temporarily is like when a cop hides his presence to ensure that the speeders keep speeding. The cop is not forcing them to speed, he is simply hiding the truth so they don't change what they already want to do. God did this to ensure the crucifixion, because he knew that the powerful gospel would convince many to come to faith (i.e. Acts 2 when Peter preached with the HS Power for the first time), so he blinded most from the gospel until his purposes were accomplished.

which means cannot use the Gospels to support election, as was a special situation!

We too believe in election. We just don't apply it in the overly individualized manner that Calvinistic believers do.

or can say that Prophets/Apostles were elected by God individually, as they had "special" roles/offices, but again cannot use that to support individual basis for election, by Will of God directly Himself...

We should all be in support of the unique choice of the apostles for this noble and authoritative purpose. To insist we are all chosen and set apart in the same manner only undermines that uniqueness and thus that authority.

 

[DaChaser1]

And why do they love the darkness while you don't?

BECAUSE GOD CHOSE YOU INSTEAD OF THEM! You can't get around it Aaron, you are just playing with semantics to try and avoid the obvious conclusions. There is nothing inaccurate with the term "preselected few" in describing Calvinistic doctrine and I think you know it. You just want to argue.


The fault of that logic ignores the fact that in your system we were all born as dogs. Thus to ask why some meow and others don't takes on a whole new perspective. Some were chosen by God to meow while others were not....PERIOD. You can't avoid it bro and deep down you know it.

does God have a right to do as he wills with his Grace as he wills?

can mortal man try to condemn how the Almighty has decided to have thiings 'worked out?"

or is it still unfair?

 

[freeatlast]

does God have a right to do as he wills with his Grace as he wills?

can mortal man try to condemn how the Almighty has decided to have thiings 'worked out?"

or is it still unfair?

How salvation comes about is not about fairness. God elects and man chooses. Both working to bring about the salvation of some.

 

[DaChaser1]

How salvation comes about is not about fairness. God elects and man chooses. Both working to bring about the salvation of some.

bible says that salvation is fully "of the lord" though....

He will share His glory with 'Nne", for He alone can save us!

He needs NO assitance to bring to salvation His chosen in Christ!

 

[preacher4truth]

bible says that salvation is fully "of the lord" though....

He will share His glory with 'Nne", for He alone can save us!

He needs NO assitance to bring to salvation His chosen in Christ!

I see that it is God who chose us.

 

[freeatlast]

bible says that salvation is fully "of the lord" though....

He will share His glory with 'Nne", for He alone can save us!

He needs NO assitance to bring to salvation His chosen in Christ!

I certainly agree that God does the saving. Let me tell you a story. Many years ago I was swimming at a lake. I noticed this young woman bobbing in the water. I swam over as she was going under with her arms whaling so I grabbed her and pushed her above water. At first she panicked and tried to crawl on top of me. If that had happened we both most likely would have drowned. However I told her to let go of me or we would both drown and I would help her. She had the mind set to trust me and because of that (her faith in me) she and I both escaped drowning.

I believe God works like that. However we have to agree to the saving which is our part. God elects and man accepts, both doing their part unto salvation. The assistance He needs is our faith and that part is our choice. He chooses to save, but we choose to accept or not.

 

[DaChaser1]

I certainly agree that God does the saving. Let me tell you a story. Many years ago I was swimming at a lake. I noticed this young woman bobbing in the water. I swam over as she was going under with her arms whaling so I grabbed her and pushed her above water. At first she panicked and tried to crawl on top of me. If that had happened we both most likely would have drowned. However I told her to let go of me or we would both drown and I would help her. She had the mind set to trust me and because of that (her faith in me) she and I both escaped drowning.

I believe God works like that. However we have to agree to the saving which is our part. God elects and man accepts, both doing their part unto salvation. The assistance He needs is our faith and that part is our choice. He chooses to save, but we choose to accept or not.

Because God chose us, his election causes us to accept jesus and be saved!

ALL of those whom God has chosen to be saved in Christ will be saved, NONE lost!
ALL will receive Jesus and conform their election, NONE will reject him!

 

[Aaron]

And why do they love the darkness while you don't?

BECAUSE GOD CHOSE YOU INSTEAD OF THEM! You can't get around it Aaron, you are just playing with semantics to try and avoid the obvious conclusions. There is nothing inaccurate with the term "preselected few" in describing Calvinistic doctrine and I think you know it. You just want to argue.


The fault of that logic ignores the fact that in your system we were all born as dogs. Thus to ask why some meow and others don't takes on a whole new perspective. Some were chosen by God to meow while others were not....PERIOD. You can't avoid it bro and deep down you know it.

Dude, learn to read.

Johnny: Uncle Charlie, why does the cat meow?

Charlie: Because it isn't a dog.

Johnny: But pigs aren't dogs either.

Charlie: That's right.

Johnny: They don't meow.

Charlie: Uh . . .

Johnny: Neither do cows or chickens. Parakeets. Goldfish. None of them meow.

Charlie: Well, it all depends on the definition of "meow". . .

Johnny: So the real reason a cat meows can't be because it's not a dog, can it?

Charlie: Well, like I said before, it depends . . .

Johnny: Maybe there is some other reason? Maybe it meows is because it's a cat?

Charlie: And the reason it's a cat is because?

Johnny: Um. It was born that way?

Charlie: No, you idiot. It's because IT'S NOT A DOG! Are you saying the cat IS a dog?

Johnny: (rolls eyes) No, Uncle Charlie. You're right. The cat is not a dog.

Charlie: That'll teach you to challenge a former debate teacher!

Johnny: Whatever you say, Uncle Charlie.

Now, change cat to "sinner," meow to "reject christ," and change dog to "elect." Then you will understand your fallacy—maybe. At least everyone else will.

 

[preacher4truth]

Dude, learn to read.

Johnny: Uncle Charlie, why does the cat meow?

Charlie: Because it isn't a dog.

Johnny: But pigs aren't dogs either.

Charlie: That's right.

Johnny: They don't meow.

Charlie: Uh . . .

Johnny: Neither do cows or chickens. Parakeets. Goldfish. None of them meow.

Charlie: Well, it all depends on the definition of "meow". . .

Johnny: So the real reason a cat meows can't be because it's not a dog, can it?

Charlie: Well, like I said before, it depends . . .

Johnny: Maybe there is some other reason? Maybe it meows is because it's a cat?

Charlie: And the reason it's not a cat is because?

Johnny: Um. It was born that way?

Charlie: No, you idiot. It's because IT'S NOT A DOG! Are you saying the cat IS a dog?

Johnny: (rolls eyes) No, Uncle Charlie. You're right. The cat is not a dog.

Charlie: That'll teach you to challenge a former debate teacher!

Johnny: Whatever you say, Uncle Charlie.

Now, change cat to "sinner," meow to "reject christ," and change dog to "elect." Then you will understand your fallacy—maybe. At least everyone else will.

:thumbsup: LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!

"former debate teacher" ..... uh..... :laugh:

I love how he continues to bring this up. He self aggrandizes often a la ""He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory;"

If you have the goods you don't have to continue to announce it. :thumbsup:

 

[glfredrick]

The difference is only about WHO does the limiting. We both must willingly admit that a relative FEW will be saved and from a Calvinistic perspective the obvious reason for that is due to God's choice to effectually save a select few, whereas in our view the limiting is done by those who "trade the truth in for a lie" and "refuse to accept the truth and so be saved," despite God's gracious love and provision for them all.

So, it appears you all are merely offended by the facts of the matter.

I'm late to this party, but I am of a mind by your remarks here that you are making attempt to dismiss God's sovereign election BY NUMBERING THE ELECT.

Are we EVER given permission in Scripture to make attempt to number God's elect? Do we even KNOW who are God's elect until such time as GOD reveals them to us?

I know you are trying to hold a scholarly discussion here, bit in my estimation your attempts to find a way around sovereign election cause you to tread dangerous ground that cannot be supported by Scripture in context.

Take "Israel" for instance -- your example of "corporate election." That election began with whom? And yes, it was ONE WHOM who GOD ELECTED.

God ratified the covenant He made (and in which HE "cut the covenant") with Abraham in Abraham's SON, Jacob and in Jacob's SON Isaac. Later, God traced the INDIVIDUALS who would carry forth His election until long-awaited and promised Messiah came into this world. All along, while holding a covenant with a PEOPLE, God elected INDIVIDUALS to accomplish what His divine will stipulated, and at that often apart from the expectations, the cultural law of the day, or even in several cases apart from the covenant family of Israel!

I think, ultimately, you have erected a magnificent scaffolding to paint a building, and you have done a great job of painting, but when it comes time to collect for your work you will discover that you erected your scaffold at the wrong initial address...

 

[freeatlast]

Because God chose us, his election causes us to accept jesus and be saved!

ALL of those whom God has chosen to be saved in Christ will be saved, NONE lost!
ALL will receive Jesus and conform their election, NONE will reject him!

Not according to scripture.
Matt 23:37
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!

If you notice He is willing, but they are not. God clearly does work through election, but He also allows free will. I am not able to explain how it works but it does, just like Jesus could be God and man.