Let's give that tree a trophy for being so good!

No sir your diagnosis of me has completely missed the mark! Scripture is the basis of my beliefs, the whole of scripture, not just a jot or tittle that receives unwarranted notice from "scholars" like you. I thank God that I am not a "scholar" like you, lest I too become confused about what is being said in the whole of scripture!

 

I thought you used to be a Calvinist. You should understand this argument.

Man freely acts within the confines of his nature, just as God does. God is responsible personally for His actions, and so is man. There is nothing unjust or unbiblical about that. You say that man is created in God's image. Well, then why don't you accept compatibalist free will, since compatibalist free will is part of God's image?

In your view then, God is no more free than the stump of a tree as well, because God lacks the moral ability to sin, because it is contrary to his nature. If you think God is free but still unable to sin, then why is it somehow different for man? You are suggesting man has libertine freedom, while God does not have it. If man has it, one must show from Scripture that is true, and one must show that it was not somehow lost, damaged, or changed in the fall.

The issue here isn't your personal definitions of freedom. The issue is what the Bible says about man's nature and man's abilities, which you have yet to address. Where is libertine free will taught in Scripture?

Exactly. He is the one with problem, not God. You seem to be saying that man can not be held responsible for not responding to the gospel unless he has the ability to respond positively. However, this begs the question of why man is condemned. Where does Scripture say that man is condemned for not accepting Christ? On the contrary, Scripture says man is condemned for his sins. God is under no obligation to anybody for anything. Salvation is mercy, and, by definition, pure mercy is not an obligation.

Why is God obligated to man to give him the moral ability to believe in order to hold him responsible for his condemnation and not be "unjust"? You are saying God must do this in order to be "just," correct? If so, why? What about man merits such a thing?

Total depravity does not mean that men cannot make choices freely. Libertine free will is a construct of Western thought, not Scripture itself. It says that their choices will only be consistent with the nature of fallen man.

If the claim that it is not right for a person to be held responsible for doing only that which is consistent with his nature is true, that would mean that the devil himself is exempt from judgment since he also is only following the dictates of his fallen nature as well. It would also mean God is not responsible for His own actions as well, even though His nature is completely righteous.

What Scripture shows He IS free to do morally or naturally?

God's word declares that the unregenerate man has a deceitful heart, does not do good, does not seek for God, cannot understand spiritual things, has nothing good dwelling in him, is dead in his sins, and is by nature a child of wrath, we maintain that he is incapable of making a moral choice to decide to trust in Christ on his own. We maintain that his will is also affected by sin and, as the word of God says in Romans 6:14-20, he is a slave of sin. This means that he is incapable of coming to God on his own because he cannot and will not choose contrary to his fallen and sinful nature. We see proof of this in the following scriptures from Jesus.
John 6:44, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."
and again...
John 6:65, Jesus said, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father."

If no one can come to God without the Father drawing and granting it to him, then the person is powerless to come to God of his own free will.
Please consider this again. If the free will argument is that the will of man is somehow neutral enough, somehow uneffected by sin enough, that it can make a choice between coming to God and not coming to God, then it would not be powerless and the statement "no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father," would not be true.

 

Nobody denies that God instructs, etc., but the actual act of believing is up to them. It is autonomous. This is your view. The ability is the ability to understand and the ability to come. ALL those that come also believe and are raised at the last day. The same ones that come are the same ones that are instructed. If your view is correct, then John 6:45 is false, because it says all that are instructed will, without exception come, and those that come are clearly identified as believing not being cast away and raised on the last day. Your way can only lead to universalism.

Non-sequitar. We are judged for our sins. If all our sins are paid for, then isn't unbelief a sin?

Straw man. This is not an assumption, it is an exegetical conclusion.

No, John 3:16 unequivocally says "the believing ones have eternal life." You know Greek, you should understand this. It says the believing ones POSSESS eternal life in actuality. It does NOT say that "can" believe, as in potentially believe or have the capacity to believe. What is the morphology for that participle, is it active, middle, or passive voice?

If it is unjust for man to be held responsible for not believing in Christ, then Satan too must not be responsible for his actions either, since he is only acting in accordance with his nature.

Southern has a thread on this already where your ideas have already been discussed. If you'd like to start another one, go ahead.

However, you are quoting from a pericope in John 12, not John 6 to support your exegesis of John 6. That is eisegesis of the text. The reason stated by Jesus for their not believing in John 6 is John 6:44, not John 12:39 - 40. They do not come because they are not able to come. He is telling them why they do not believe and why they will not be raised on the last day. He answers their grumbling that way. He is talking to this particular group of individuals, not abstractly about "the Jews."

You still have not shown where libertine free will is taught in Scripture, nor have you dealt with the compatibalist nature of God's own will.

 

Do you guys ever stop and listen to yourselves? This is just double talk.

Of course unregenerate men are free and able to not believe, but what passage gives you the authority to say that unregenerate men can't respond in faith to God's message sent for the purpose of reconciling the world to himself? </font>[/QUOTE]Well, for starters there's the one I've already mentioned:

1 Cor. 2:14 (ESV)
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

 

I agree that "they are not able to come." Why? Can you find the verse that says, "They can't come because they were born Totally depraved (or something to that effect at least?) I have a verse just a few chapters following which tells us exactly why they can't believe and come to Christ. BECAUSE THEY ARE BEING HARDENED. And if they weren't being hardened they might have been healed, but that wasn't Christ's purpose in being here. He came to accomplish redemption for the world, which included setting the foundation for his church by training the apostles (chosen remnant of Israel); by atoning for the sins of the world on the cross; and by allowing for the ingrafting of non-Jewish peoples into the church (Gentiles). This was his redemptive purpose and it is the reason that ONLY those the father had given him could come to him. Its only after he was raised up that he would draw all peoples to himself. </font>[/QUOTE]The phrase “all” in 6:39 has a context: it began in v. 37, when the Lord said, “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one coming to Me I will never cast out.” This is in contrast to those who are not coming to Him and believing, the ones He has identified as unbelievers (v. 36). Further, in v. 37 the “all” then, as a result of being given, do something, that is, they come to Christ. Obviously, “all” in v. 37 cannot be placed in the “general” category, but is instead governed by the descriptive “that the Father gives me.” Also, in v.39, "all" is neuter. Christ says He lose none of all, but raises all up on the last day. The example you provide from John 12 does not refer to the all of this text. You can prattle on about John 12 all you want, but as we shall see, if we interpret John 6 by John 12, we will go directly into universalism.

Those given by the Father to the Son in eternity past (John 6:39) are given to Him for a specific purpose noted in the text itself: the Father’s will is that the Son raise them all up at the last day.

With regard to John 6 and John 12, Skandelon, the "all" in John 6 is very specific. The "all" of John 6, is, by necessity, Christians. Why? Because all are raised up at the last day. So, rather than making the emphasis "drawing," you need to consider the definition of "all" in context.

If Jesus draws all men to himself the way you say he does, then applying your logic consistently in John 6 leads directly to universalism, Skandelon. The "all" in John 6 ALL come and they ALL believe and they are ALL raised up by Jesus on the last day without exception. Therefore, if John 12:32 in particular and John 12 at all is relevant here the way you say it is relevant, then Jesus, by drawing all men to himself, they will come, they will believe, and all be raised on the last day.

 

I thought you used to be a Calvinist. You should understand this argument.</font>[/QUOTE]I have been under Calvinist teaching, but I am not a Calvinist! I have likewise been under Armenian teaching, but I am not an Armenian. I AM CHRISTIAN!

I am saying that God made man with the ability to believe. Now if man can believe anything at all, man can also believe spiritual things. understanding spiritual things may be difficult without the aid of the Holy Spirit, but believing spiritual things is not difficult.

If man can believe things of the occult, and many do, those who do are believing things of the spirit realm, and they are made just like those of us who do not believe in the occult. Satan is spirit, Satan's demons are spirit. Many people believe them and believe in them. So, if man is capable of believing the occultic things of spirit, why do you declare that man is NOT capable of believing things of Divine Spirit? My gracious, look at the prophets of BAAL and the following they had, Masses of people who believed the "spirit things they taught". Look at the Pharaoh's magicians They believed in spiritual things. What about the Chaldeans, the necromancers, and all the false Gods, People believed in them and what they are reputed to have told the people through their "priests".

So, if man can believe at all, man can believe in things of the spirit! Think about it!

The argument as you've posed it has no merit! It has nothing to support it! The evidence says, either it is wrong or your interpretation of it is wrong!

 

Paul says that natural man is not able to understand the things of the Spirit. Why should I believe you instead of Paul? Think about it!

 

Are you completely ignorant of the Atonement? We are judged separately from our sins which are DEEDS. Revelation 20:14,15.

Unbelief is not sin! A condition of self condemnation, but not sin!

What a CROCK! Satan is not a man, satan is spirit. I am amazed that a great greek scholar such as yourself missed such a straight forward fact. I guess it is true what scriptures say about "confounding the wise".

 

You are not totally depraved but all your activities are tainted by sin.

 

The part of the Word that says we are DEAD. Dead. Christ brings life. Dead people don't reach out for life, they're dead.
The dead can only respond if Christ calls them to respond. Like Lazarus did.
The image of Christ holding out a gift and your reaching for it like in the little Chick tracts may have thrown you off. Instead draw a little picture of yourself lying there dead on the ground and Christ pouring life over you.
Gina

 

Paul says that natural man is not able to understand the things of the Spirit. Why should I believe you instead of Paul? Think about it! </font>[/QUOTE]I did not say that man understands, BELIEF does not require understanding! Most new believers in Christ do not understand all that their belief requires. They simply have decided to be believe the information provided to them without comprehending all of it.

 

OK, here's the whole verse.

1 Cor. 2:14 (ESV)
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.


I suppose now you will say that belief doesn't require acceptance.

 

OK, here's the whole verse.

1 Cor. 2:14 (ESV)
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.


I suppose now you will say that belief doesn't require acceptance. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]No sir, Belief IS acceptance. That which you believe is accepted.

 

OK, here's the whole verse.

1 Cor. 2:14 (ESV)
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.


I suppose now you will say that belief doesn't require acceptance. </font>[/QUOTE]No sir, Belief IS acceptance. That which you believe is accepted. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]So, you finally agree that unregenerate man cannot believe. Good, I'm glad I could help.

 

OK, here's the whole verse.

1 Cor. 2:14 (ESV)
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.


I suppose now you will say that belief doesn't require acceptance. </font>[/QUOTE]No sir, Belief IS acceptance. That which you believe is accepted. </font>[/QUOTE]So, you finally agree that unregenerate man cannot believe. Good, I'm glad I could help. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Whatever, That is what I've been saying ALL the time, I've never deviated from the truth that unregenerate man can and does believe. If you go look at my posts throughout the C vs A Forum you will see my position clearly!