Let's give that tree a trophy for being so good!

Hi Gina L;

They don't reach out for sin either if there dead there dead and are not subject to it. Not to mention that if men are born dead then men have never sinned. Ridiculous Huh! Just as ridiculous as being unable to respond to the gospel.
May God Bless You;
Mike

 

Hi Whatever;

I can't speake for anyone else but, I would never say that based on your one verse theology.
What was Paul referring to?, could the preceeding verse explain the truth of it all?

1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
The things that the Holy Spirit teaches us is not the gospel but rather the deeper things of God.
The gospel is known and understood by the sinner and it isn't taught by the Holy Spirit but by the word. The Holy spirit convicts us of what we have already done but it is Christ that saves us.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Are you claiming we are saved any other way?
May God Bless you;
Mike

 

Skandelon,

Trees are not hostile towards God and do not "choose" to hate Him. The sinners hatred and rejection of God is a manifestation of His own nature and will. He will be held accountable for this.

In Christ

 

Hi Southern;

If it is His own will then you admit that He has a choice to do other wise. If it isn't his will then He has no choice and is not responsible for what he could not help but be. Seems that Calvinism shoots it self in the foot with it's own contradictions
May God Bless You With Light;
Mike

 

They don't reach out for sin either if there dead there dead and are not subject to it. Not to mention that if men are born dead then men have never sinned. Ridiculous Huh! Just as ridiculous as being unable to respond to the gospel.
May God Bless You;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]To be spiritually dead means to be spiritually separated from God.
Death means= life with Satan
Life= life with Christ

We will always choose bad over good, it is our nature. We are all born to destruction as children of our father the devil.
We would never be "partly" saved on our own, of our own goodness.
We will never "partly" respond to good without the Holy Spirit, wholly or in part we'd never respond without divine truth. When that knowledge of the truth comes (as a gift and only through the power of God) it is irresistable, one cannot withstand the power of God.
Gina

 

Hi Gina L;

My Father is my Heavenly Father. We are not born to destruction and scripture doesn't say this at all. In Fact we were created for righteousness which is why Christ died for us all to begin with.

This is all I can see from your post that I do agree with.

Actually there is nothing irresistible. The truth of the matter is that the Jews have been known to resist God ever since God chose them. In Fact He came unto His own and they rejected Him. To say that we can't resist God is ridiculous and unfounded. Scripture does not support Irresistible Grace nor any other pedal of the tulip.
May God Bless you;
Mike

 

Please read all of Ephesians chapter two.
Your views turns grace into a crutch, a mere assistance device that helps us out in getting to our salvation.
As far as the Jews, if you use that as your premise you also have to admit you believe in predestination, for if you believe the Jews could have believed then you have to admit God predestined you and all other Gentiles to hell with no hope.
Gina

 

Gina,
Nothing that you've said here indicates that man, in his spiritually dead state, is not capable of "hearing" God's word. Man is capable of hearing no matter how deep in depravity he may be. Man either takes hope in what he hears which leads him to believe and through belief to have faith, or he does not and therefore falls deeper in dispair.

Faith is a personal and individual choice that every man is capable of having. The one's who have faith in God, God saves, all others, God casts into the lake of fire.

By the way, your equation is not true either!

 

Mike,

This is false. Just because a person has a will does not mean that they can choose "otherwise".

A sinner can choose what he wants to choose but it does not follow that he can choose "anything". God has a will but that does not mean He can choose anything. He cannot sin. He cannot choose "otherwise" as you stated yet that doesnt mean He doesn't have a will. God cannot choose against His nature.
A sinner can choose to do whatever he wants to do. But there are some things he "cannot" choose to do such as come to Christ (John 6:44). The sinner will not choose against his nature. Just as God will not choose to lie because it is against His nature.

That is the whole point. It is the sinners "choice" to sin. This is a manifestation of his nature. But it does not follow that he can come to Christ (John 6:44).

In Christ
Hope that clears up any misunderstanding

 

If you are arguing that Calvinists believe that God's grace can not be resisted, that is a straw man, Mike. Irresistible grace in salvation means that God's grace overcomes the resistance that man offers. Every Calvinist on the planet agrees that we can resist God. In fact, we believe that all persons that are unregenerate are, at this very moment, effectively resisting even the common grace of God given to all men through general revelation, like the existence of creation itself. Atheism is a marvelous example. Ironically, atheists seem to know more about themselves that Arminans however, as most atheists will say that not only do not want to believe but they do not believe they CAN believe.

Mike, John 6 says that ALL that come to Jesus WILL believe.

John 6:39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.


40"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day

44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

45"It is written in the prophets, AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

According to this, EVERYBODY that is drawn by the Father comes to Jesus and all of them believe all of them are raised up on the last day, not one person that comes is turned away. All that come do so because they are being drawn by God. They are the same ones that will not ever be lost and all of them believe, without exception, and are raised on the last day. That is efficacious grace.

 

Hi Gina;

I have; and because I didn't read it with preconceived notions about it I got the whole truth from that passage. Would you care to state something more specific

I don't believe that's true at all. Your view turns our Savior in to a careless dictator instead of a benevolent God.

Not true; God predestined all men to righteousness. It's your view with the false premise of predestination being an unalterable plan that want's to send men to hell for sin they had no choice in at all. Makeing God out as some sadist who receives pleasure from the torture of men for sin they could not keep from doing because God would not choose them as well.
May God Give You Light;
Mike

 

Hi Southern;

With out choice there can be no will, of course you knew that. By the shear fact we have a will indicates that we have a choice.

Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

The Jews had a choice that means all men have a choice. Show me where the Bible say man has no choice. You can do that can't you?
All men can come to Christ because it is God's will. Yet they don't all come because most choose not to. Not all men!. God first chose us and we must first trust that Christ was and is God in the flesh It is our trust in Christ that is our choice.

You make all these claims with out one scripture to back it up.
May God Give You Light;
Mike

 

Mike,

I stated that we do have a will. The choices we make are a manifestation of our nature. No one ever denies that. But it does not follow that a person can choose "anything" when the Bible flatly denies that they can come to Christ (John 6:44) because it is against his nature. God cannot choose to lie, but that doesn't mean He doesnt have a will. Glorified saints cannot choose to sin, but it does not follow that they have no will. So just because a person has a will it does not follow that they can choose against their nature.

I clearly stated that the sinner freely "chooses" to sin. This is a manifestation of his nature. But as I stated in my last post this does not imply that he can choose "anything". God freely "chooses" to be good and not to lie because He acts in accordance with His nature. Sinners freely "choose" to disobey God because they act in accordance with their nature. Coming to Christ would be "against" their nature so they lack the ability(John 6:44).

In Christ

 

I have; and because I didn't read it with preconceived notions about it I got the whole truth from that passage. Would you care to state something more specific

I don't believe that's true at all. Your view turns our Savior in to a careless dictator instead of a benevolent God.

Not true; God predestined all men to righteousness. It's your view with the false premise of predestination being an unalterable plan that want's to send men to hell for sin they had no choice in at all. Makeing God out as some sadist who receives pleasure from the torture of men for sin they could not keep from doing because God would not choose them as well.
May God Give You Light;
Mike </font>[/QUOTE]I don't understand how the Scriptures aren't specific enough. Read it again.

How is god that would choose to save a number of hellbound persons from destruction a careless dictator? Your position automatically assumes that a god who would not give one a chance to escape their own condemnation is cruel. If 20 murderers are hung for their crimes and 2 are granted complete pardons, do we gasp at the cruelty of the judge for not pardoning all of them? If your answer is yes, your problem is that you are attempting to inject the human concept of fairness into your spiritual beliefs.

And...where do you find that ALL men are predestined to righteousness? What were the Jews chosen for? What was to become of the gentiles if the Jews had accepted Christ?

Gina

 

Hello Mike,

That was directed to Wes. I don't know anyone who would really say that. And I just gave one verse, but that doesn't mean I only have one.

Scripture? Not trying to be a smart aleck, I've just never heard anyone say that the Holy Spirit doesn't teach the gospel.

Absolutely not.

 

Hi Gina L;

He would be only be that kind of God if the Calvinist view were possible. Which it isn't. While I agree that we are all born in sin we are not born to sin. If God by decree chose to save only a few not even giving the others a chance to be rescued. His decree would be unjust. The men destined for Hell could not help themselves because they were created for destruction. They never had a chance because according to Calvinism It's God's good pleasure that they die. Which by the way is just another false doctrine of Calvinism.
We have a choice.
Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Yet Calvinism claims this isn't possible to turn yourself from sin.
God begged the Israelites to turn from there sins.

Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Because it is the will of God that all men be saved.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Where do you see in scripture that some of us are created for destruction?

Where do you see in scripture that only a few are elected? Where do you see election as Individual. Where in scripture does it say that predestination is unalterable? Where does scripture say that Atonement is limited?, or Grace irresistible?
Your theology is a the doctrine of men not of God.
May God Give you light;
Mike

 

Hi Whatever;

Yes well that one verse you posted didn't even imply what you claimed.

Have you ever read in scripture that the Holy Spirit teaches the gospel?

Christ teaches the gospel in the Bible known as His word because He is the word. Jn 1:1.
If it's the Holy Spirit that regenerates us as Calvinism claims then Christ isn't saving us the Holy Spirit is. So the Holy Spirit does not regenerate us Christ does. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our sins and brings us to repentance. When we here the gospel, that is His involvment. He dwells in side of us after we are saved.

Then how is it that the Holy Spirit regenerates us? When it is Christ that saves us.
May God Give You Light;
Mike

 

Skan,
A person is "involved" in freely choosing to sin. This is a manifestation of his corrupt nature. God holds men accuntable for sinning against and hating Him.Trees do not "sin" against God.

In Christ