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Let's give that tree a trophy for being so good!

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Skandelon, Dec 13, 2004.

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  1. ILUVLIGHT

    ILUVLIGHT Guest

    Hi Southern;
    Have you ever hated someone who you never even knew existed?
    I believe that we must know whom we hate or hatred of that person would not be possible. Let's say for instance You knew who God is and you hated Him because His laws say don't do this or that. You would be hating Him because of His Laws. But if you only knew about the Laws and didn't know God you would hate the Laws only. You cannot hate something that for all you know doesn't exist.
    If we are born to sin as some here have said then you didn't have a choice and can't help what you were made for. Remember the clay. Can the pot say to the potter why have you made me thus? Who is responsible for how God made you. If you say we were made for righteousness. Only then can you be held responsible for not being righteous. Responsibility is being held accountable for your actions. Did we obey God's comandment to Love Him or did we fail to do that. If you take Choice away you take responsibility away. Regardless of what God wants there is no responsibility when one has no control over the issues.
    May God Bless you:
    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #61 ILUVLIGHT, Dec 17, 2004
  2. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    And a tree is "involved" in photosenthisis. So? They both are only doing what they were born to do. The man has no more control over his sin than a tree has over the direction its roots grow.

    And the trees growth is a manifiestation of photosenthisis. So? There is still no difference.

    But it would make just as much sense for him to hold a tree accountable as it does for Him to hold man accoutable, if Calvinism is true.
     
    #62 Skandelon, Dec 17, 2004
  3. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Then why is it that ALL throughout scriptures man is beset upon to CHOOSE? A couple of examples? "Choose you this day whom you will serve", "I have set before you life and death, Choose Life"! "Behold I stand at the door and Knock, IF ANY MAN opens the door (a personal choice) I will come in and sup with him and he with me."

    Man never lost the ability to choose, nor the control required to choose, man simply chooses out of disobedience to God.
     
    #63 Wes Outwest, Dec 17, 2004
  4. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Take the Sonlight away and the tree dies because it has no power to continue!

    Take the Sonlight away from man which results in darkness, and man sins all the more, because man loves the darkness for it hides his sins. There's difference in that!

    But it would make just as much sense for him to hold a tree accountable as it does for Him to hold man accoutable, if Calvinism is true.</font>[/QUOTE]Since the Atonement for sin, God does not charge man's sins against him. ALL sins are judged in the same manner that Goodworks are judged, but the one who does the sins is not likewise judged. Mans eternal life is a matter of FAITH alone! You either have it and live, or you lack it and die!
     
    #64 Wes Outwest, Dec 17, 2004
  5. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    We've already covered John 6:63, where Jesus says that it is the Spirit that gives life. Paul told the Ephesians that God had raised them together with Christ. In Titus 3 Paul links regeneration with the Holy Spirit, who works through Christ. The entire Godhead has a part in our salvation from start to finish.

    Amen.
     
    #65 whatever, Dec 17, 2004
  6. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Then why is it that ALL throughout scriptures man is beset upon to CHOOSE? A couple of examples? "Choose you this day whom you will serve", "I have set before you life and death, Choose Life"! "Behold I stand at the door and Knock, IF ANY MAN opens the door (a personal choice) I will come in and sup with him and he with me."

    Man never lost the ability to choose, nor the control required to choose, man simply chooses out of disobedience to God.     </font>[/QUOTE]I hope you see that I agree with you. I'm debating against Calvinism. Just making sure you are following that. [​IMG]

    A tree and men are both dependant upon the son to provide physical life.

    If you mean that removing Sonlight from men is like removing "spiritual light" or God's revelation, then yes. That is called hardening.
     
    #66 Skandelon, Dec 17, 2004
  7. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Whatever,
    Jesus is speaking of human makeup when he says, it is the spirit that gives life to the flesh..." Flesh without spirit is dead flesh. When the flesh dies, the spirit departs the flesh, Paul said so. "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."

    The Holy Spirit is not concerned with the flesh of man, but with man's spirit!
     
    #67 Wes Outwest, Dec 18, 2004
  8. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Why do you say that? How do you know that He isn't speaking of the Holy Spirit?
     
    #68 whatever, Dec 18, 2004
  9. Southern

    Southern New Member

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    Mike,

    I understand where you are coming from. The problem I have with this is that Rom. 1:18-20 says that people know enough about God to render them without excuse:

    18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    Conclusion: Men 'choose' to "suppress" this truth and walk in ungodliness and sin. They love darkness rather than light.

    No one ever said that sinners have no "choice". They make a "choice" to sin.

    May God bless us both Mike...

    In Christ
     
    #69 Southern, Dec 19, 2004
  10. Southern

    Southern New Member

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    Skan,

    I am sure we agree that the Bible teaches that the wages of "sin" is death (Rom. 6:23). God holds man accountable for sin. Objects of nature such as trees, flowers, grass, etc. do not "sin" against God. I understand what you are trying to say by your example of the tree, but the Bible teaches that man "chooses" to sin and God holds him accountable for it. What fallen man deserves is not a "trophy" but justice. God has no obligation to bestow His mercy. To leave fallen man to his own ways is perfectly within God's sovereign right.

    In Christ
     
    #70 Southern, Dec 19, 2004
  11. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    God judges men for their respond to Christ's words.

    John 12:47 And if anyone hears My words and does not *believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

    So men aren't merely being judged because they were born sinners, they are being judged by the words of Christ's message of redemption; a message sent for the purpose of reconciling the world to God.

    Again, I am not objecting to what God could do, I'm am talking about what He has revealed he would do through scripture. Scripture says that the message of hope is for all people, yet most of humanity (if Calvinism is true) have never had any hope of salvation.

    In regard to the tree argument let me just say that if Calvinism is true it wouldn't make any more sense to reward a tree for the color of its leaves or to punish it for the lack of leaf production than it would to reward a man for his faithfulness or to punish him for his lack thereof.

    The tree only does what it has been created to do, just like a man in your system. God might as well have skipped the men and made the stones to cry out in worship, because there isn't any real difference in the two under your system.

    You have yet to show me how we are any more worthy of reward or cupable for punishment than trees or animals are in your system. Just saying because the Bible says we are only begs the question. We both agree that men are held cupable for their response to Christ and are rewarded for their faithfulness. The question is why?
     
    #71 Skandelon, Dec 19, 2004
  12. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    Why do you say that? How do you know that He isn't speaking of the Holy Spirit? </font>[/QUOTE]
    Throughout scripture, reference to the Holy Spirit uses 'S'(uppercase) whereas reference to human spirit uses 's'(lowercase). I am not among the Scholars who selected that convention, I am merely an accepter and user of that convention. However, in this scripture the connection between spirit and flesh is undeniably human. The human flesh cannot live without spirit, therefore the truth is that flesh has nothing to offer to God. It is spirit alone that God is interested in. Furthermore, it is spirit that CONTROLS the flesh, and the scriptures are replete with examples where man is told to "control" the actions of the flesh. It is the spirit where such control resides! It is the spirit that is affected by the words of Jesus, and not the flesh. It is the spirit that passes into eternal life, and not the flesh.
     
    #72 Wes Outwest, Dec 19, 2004
  13. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest New Member

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    I am sure we agree that the Bible teaches that the wages of "sin" is death (Rom. 6:23). God holds man accountable for sin. Objects of nature such as trees, flowers, grass, etc. do not "sin" against God. I understand what you are trying to say by your example of the tree, but the Bible teaches that man "chooses" to sin and God holds him accountable for it. What fallen man deserves is not a "trophy" but justice. God has no obligation to bestow His mercy. To leave fallen man to his own ways is perfectly within God's sovereign right.

    In Christ     </font>[/QUOTE]Do you deny Jesus' Atonement for sin?
     
    #73 Wes Outwest, Dec 19, 2004
  14. Southern

    Southern New Member

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    Skandelon,

    We are worthy of punishment because we “choose” to sin (Rom. 6:23). You seem to be saying that in my position God would be unjust if He does not bestow His mercy upon every single individual and instead leaves them to their fallen nature. This objection puts God under obligation to the sinner and makes the gospel a matter of justice rather than grace. The grace of God cannot be demanded.

    In Christ
     
    #74 Southern, Dec 20, 2004
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