Let's hash out the distinction between Original Sin and Total Depravity.

[Moriah]

I was thinking more along the lines of connect the dots...lol.

I said: Not all are dogs and pigs.

You said: Those that Peter refer to here are.

My reply: Of course, Peter is referring to the dogs and pigs. Peter is explaining about those WHO LEFT THE STRAIGHT WAY.

You said: The passage deals with false teachers, not born again believers.

My reply: PETER IS EXPLAINING ABOUT THOSE WHO LEFT THE STRAIGHT WAY. If they were not once saved, then how could they of known the Lord and Savior? 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

You said: They are compared woth fallen angels, the wicked of the flood,those of Sodom and Gomorrha...and when Lot is mentioned, one that was considered just, Peter says:

My reply: You have not proven your beliefs from what you say. Peter is talking about the DEPRAVED. No way is this about every human being.


I said: Not ALL are totally depraved, as Calvin and Luther teach.
You said: This term draws a picture of all men being completely vile and doing works which are, from a human perspective, things that our society reject. However, for man to considered a sinner it does not take actions such as murder, theft, et cetera, it is merely a matter that man's righteousness, and his righteousnesses, are not as God's righteousness.

My reply: Nothing you said here is but a smoke screen. I will repeat, not ALL are totally depraved as Calvin and Luther teach.

You said: Man can not help but to be selfish, most of his actions are based upon himself. Man may tell a "little white lie," for the sake of something so small so as to not be embarrassed, whereas God could not. We would think it harsh to say, "Well, sir, though it be a little white lie, it still makes you a liar." And that would be true. But God cannot lie.

My reply: More smoke screen talk from you. How does this mean we are totally depraved and cannot believe in Jesus after learning of him? There are those who gladly do right and want to obey God, but we cannot stop sinning, not without our Savior and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, see Isaiah 64:5. That is the Word of God! You speak the words of Paul Washer and John Calvin, rubbish, the intellect of men, the assumptions of men that nullify God’s word.

You said: That is the primary difference between God and all men born.
God's very nature prohibits that He should work unrighteousness, however small, and man's nature is such that he will sin, because that is his nature.

My reply: This is more smoke screen. How does what you say oppose what I say? It does not. We are speaking of sin verses totally depravity.

I said: The word of God tells us that pagans CHOOSE to do what they do, see 1 Peter 4:3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do--living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. Peter says pagans CHOOSE to live in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, etc.
Christians also can choose.

You said: Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 11 that those that partake of the Lord's Supper unworthily among them are weak, sickly, and die.
Peter makes a distinction between the way we use to live, and the way we should live.

My reply: There were people there getting drunk at the gathering for the Lord’s Supper. They also were eating and not caring about the poor and hungry, while they ate before them. How do you think this proves all are totally depraved? How does what you say here disprove anything that I said? It does not.

I said: For we did at one time live like that, but we did not come to know Christ while we were indulging in impurity…we came to know Christ when we HEARD of him

You said: When I came to Christ I was in the thick of sin. I was a drug addict, an alcoholic, and perhaps worst of all...a heavy metal musician...lol.

My reply: I repeated only what the word of God says, yet you try to contradict the word of God? So, you are saying different than the word of God, that you came to know Christ WHILE you were shooting up, or putting drugs in your nose? That is when you came to know Christ? Did you come to know Christ WHILE you were thinking of the lyrics of your heavy metal music?

You said: Concerning drugs and alcohol, I tried for years to quit. Went through counseling, programs...incarceration. And within a few months, if that, God took the desire for these things out of my life, out of my heart.
That is the power of God working in the lives of His people, removing sin, cleansing us through His power. But by the very fact that we have passage after passage commanding us not to sin, we see that putting away sin is a necessity for the believer.

My reply: That is a testimony for many. However, nowhere in the scriptures does it say that God gives us the Holy Spirit to make us believe, or to cause us to be born again when we hate Him, AS Calvinists say. THE WORD OF GOD SAYS: "...the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.” Acts 5:32.
John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
What you spoke here of your testimony, this does not disprove anything that I quoted from the Bible or anything I said.

I said: We heard and were TAUGHT, with regard to our former way of life, to put off our old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires, to be made new in the attitude of our minds, and to put on the new self, created to be like in true righteousness and holiness.


Continued...

 

[Moriah]

Continued...

You said: So when we look at the commands of God to put away sin, do we go to the extreme that we "are on our own?" That we have to make the effort to put away our former conversation in order to please God...with no help from God?

My reply: We cannot stop sinning without God. I do not know where you would get that from what I say. There is sin God will take away from you after you are saved, with your wanting. However, that does not mean we cannot choose to believe in God after learning of Him through Jesus Christ. It does NOT mean we cannot start obeying in any way before we are saved! Even some non-Christians can give up drugs and alcohol. Even a fornicator can go to get a marriage certificate to get married so that he is obeying God.

You said: First, we have to recognize sin in our lives, and that is accomplished through the word and the Spirit. When I was first saved, I thought the sin in my life was very little. Sure, I smoked, I cussed, but I felt confident that I could put these things away.
And one day the Lord spoke to my heart, and revealed a person I had never noticed before. A selfish man. A hateful man. An angry man, ready to take his anger out on anybody that might...offend me.
It was an eye-opener. I went from looking down on those around me that smoked, drank, cussed...to looking down on the person I was. I had to admit that some of these "pagans," concerning certain issues, came closer to having a heart like God's than I did.
I don't mean to say that they were saved, but that when I contrasted my actions and the feelings I harbored in my heart, I was convicted of sin.

My reply: What you say about the Lord speaking to your heart, you say “the Lord” so, you must of known and heard SOMETHING about Jesus before He helped you give up sin? Why do you want to give the impression that Jesus came from nowhere to you, and that He helped you without your wanting? Did you ever hear of God before? Did you think about Him and call out to Him? Calvinists say God saves us without our WANTING, and while we HATE Him. That, of course, it not biblical. It is against the Word.

You said: Paul gives very specific commands concerning the things that born again believers are to put away, not simply avoid doing:
Do not sin if you get angry. We can at times get angry, the question is, will the fruit of the Spirit win over the way we have behaved in our former conversation. I trained myself for years in this area, and this has been one of the most difficult things to obey for me, especially when it comes to forums, where oftentimes we speak and act as we would never think to do if we were having a face to face conversation. I try to keep this thought in mind when speaking with others on the forums, "Would I say this if this person was standing in front of me?"

My reply: Some things should cause you to raise your voice. Just so you know, not all capital letters mean one is yelling, and not all exclamation points are screaming. Jesus and John the baptizer called people vipers. I speak the same in these forums as I do in person. One must remember too, that this IS a debate group that we choose to be in. I am not debating people who do not want to be debated.

You said: Balance that with the commands given to the Church, and awareness of sin will lead to the putting away of those sins. We can grieve the Spirit, and quench the Spirit, putting our desires before the work He has begun and seeks to do in our hearts and lives.

My reply: If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner? That is the word of God.


You said: For those of us that go on forums, we have opportunity to please God in obedience to these commands. The opportunity for spiritual growth here is unparalleled, as we seek to do that which we already know is pleasing in His sight.

My reply: Of course, you think someone is being mean when he or she tells you that you are wrong. However, that is false judgment of you. Stop thinking negatively about others, for that could be what is causing you to have false judgments. If you continue to think that someone is mean and hateful for speaking the truth to you, those thoughts could keep you from learning the truth. Consider carefully what and why Apostle Paul said, “Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?” It is only out of love that I speak to you and others here. If I did not do so out of love, why else would I want to share what God has revealed to me? Why would I want you to get closer to the Truth with the Truth, if not for love? Stop judging me; you are not qualified to judge me, for you proved that by false judgments, and you prove it by not obeying, for God tells you not to judge His servant. Just obey God, and stop thinking bad about others.

I said: The pagans choose to live like they do, and we who are saved chose to be reconciled to God, through Jesus Christ.

You said: We responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, but we did not save ourselves. Meaning, because we chose to receive Christ, we cannot think that it was we ourselves that initiated the relationship.

My reply: Where did I say we saved ourselves? If you know, I did not say that, then why imply I said that by replying back to what I said with those comments? Is that a tactic to make someone appear wrong?
My Master sent people to give me a message; I got the message and did what my Master said to do.

You said: Had God not exposed us to His word and will, we had not have had faith. Had God not manifested in the flesh, died for us, and given us something to believe in, we had not had belief, for we would not have had anything to believe in.

My reply: Of course, and that is what I have said in this board.

You said: We were going about as the Gentiles, a euphemistic term to describe those that do not know God. But God gave us the ability to understand spiritual things when we were in a condition where we could not understand.

My reply: Many Gentiles heard about God and what Moses taught. There were God fearing Gentiles, yet they were not included as a people belonging to God. God who knows our hearts, shows that He accepts us when He gives us His Spirit. THAT is God’s Word! See Acts 5:32.

 

[Darrell C]

Did you see the quoting instructions given in the other thread? It is pretty simple, and will actually save you some time. Give it a try.

I said: Not all are dogs and pigs.

You said: Those that Peter refer to here are.

My reply: Of course, Peter is referring to the dogs and pigs. Peter is explaining about those WHO LEFT THE STRAIGHT WAY.

Just not in the text:


2 Peter:

17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.


While they seem to be something which might offer truth, they are wells without water, clouds within a storm, rather than clouds that bring that which is needed.

And their reservation? Hell.

The reservation of the saved?



1 Peter 1:4
King James Version (KJV)

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

So does Peter contradict himself? Not if you keep those he speaks about in their proper domain.

Do we retain our salvation?

5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Not at all. Do we seek to live godly? Of course.


18For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.


The target of the false teachers? Those that seek after God.



19While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

They are servants of corruption, not servants of God.

You said: The passage deals with false teachers, not born again believers.

My reply: PETER IS EXPLAINING ABOUT THOSE WHO LEFT THE STRAIGHT WAY. If they were not once saved, then how could they of known the Lord and Savior? 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

Again, just not in the text. You make this...


20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.


...mean that all that hear the Gospel...are saved.

They have "the knowledge of the Lord and Savior," which does not equate to salvation, And how one can possibly see the descriptions given of these false teachers and conclude they are saved is beyond me.

My reply: PETER IS EXPLAINING ABOUT THOSE WHO LEFT THE STRAIGHT WAY. If they were not once saved, then how could they of known the Lord and Savior? 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

Within the text we do not see "that they know the Lord Jesus."

They have knowledge of the Lord, big difference. And when we look at the thrust of what Peter is saying, that becomes clear.

This is spoken about elsewhere in scripture, and it speaks of those that hear the Gospel, and reject it. Not embrace it and then somehow become "unborn spiritually."


21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


They "know the way of righteousness," meaning they have full understanding of the gospel, and they "turn from the holy commandment," not from salvation.

Big difference. This commandment is to all men everywhere...are all saved?


22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


As stated before, these have not changed, They have not been born again, they do not know the Lord Jesus Christ, and despite the spit-shine...they turn from the commandment to believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved.

They have not, as Paul puts it in 2 Thessalonians 1...obeyed the gospel.


Continued...

 

[MB]

Blah, blah, blah. Cut to the chase.

In 25 words or less: This "ability to respond" with which the words of the Gospel endow a hearer. Is it something the hearer did NOT possess before the words were sent his way?

How about 22 words which undoubtedly prove men can hear the gospel and understand it.

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
MB

 

[Darrell C]

You said: They are compared woth fallen angels, the wicked of the flood,those of Sodom and Gomorrha...and when Lot is mentioned, one that was considered just, Peter says:

My reply: You have not proven your beliefs from what you say. Peter is talking about the DEPRAVED. No way is this about every human being.

No, Peter is talking about false teachers, and the fact that they have not obeyed the Gospel.

He illustrates this by saying, "The pig is still a pig, the dog is still a dog, and though they have washed up and given the appearance of being something they are not...they revert to their habits, because there has been no change in them."

No amount of commentary is going to change what the text states.

As far as me trying to prove that men are "totally depraved," I am doing nothing of the sort, I am merely pointing out that this chapter has been innapropiately used to try to lay a foundation for doctrinal refutation.

I said: Not ALL are totally depraved, as Calvin and Luther teach.
You said: This term draws a picture of all men being completely vile and doing works which are, from a human perspective, things that our society reject. However, for man to considered a sinner it does not take actions such as murder, theft, et cetera, it is merely a matter that man's righteousness, and his righteousnesses, are not as God's righteousness.

My reply: Nothing you said here is but a smoke screen. I will repeat, not ALL are totally depraved as Calvin and Luther teach.

I agree, "Nothing I said there is but a smokescreen."

Thanks...lol.

And who cares what these men teach? If you want to discuss doctrine with them, fine, though you will have to wait.

You said: Man can not help but to be selfish, most of his actions are based upon himself. Man may tell a "little white lie," for the sake of something so small so as to not be embarrassed, whereas God could not. We would think it harsh to say, "Well, sir, though it be a little white lie, it still makes you a liar." And that would be true. But God cannot lie.

My reply: More smoke screen talk from you. How does this mean we are totally depraved and cannot believe in Jesus after learning of him? There are those who gladly do right and want to obey God, but we cannot stop sinning, not without our Savior and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, see Isaiah 64:5. That is the Word of God! You speak the words of Paul Washer and John Calvin, rubbish, the intellect of men, the assumptions of men that nullify God’s word.

Look, simple facts:


Faith cometh by the hearing of the word.

Natural man cannot understand the spiritual things of God, and I think we would agree that the Gospel qualifies for that.

So how then does man come to the point, when he hears the word, to then believe or reject that which the word speaks.

Christ told us: the Comforter.

Apart from the convicting work of God...man will not even know his sin. And this is true of believers as well. He shows us how to discern good and evil, and if you remember back to the time before you were saved, you might agree that there are htings you did that to you did not seem to be sin, but now that you are saved, you can see how they are in direct contradiction from the holiness of God.

You said: That is the primary difference between God and all men born.
God's very nature prohibits that He should work unrighteousness, however small, and man's nature is such that he will sin, because that is his nature.

My reply: This is more smoke screen. How does what you say oppose what I say? It does not. We are speaking of sin verses totally depravity.

No, actually we are speaking of 2 Peter 2.

Which you used to fortify your hatred for Calvin and that which he believed.

In 2 Peter, we see that these false teachers are...what they always were.

I said: The word of God tells us that pagans CHOOSE to do what they do, see 1 Peter 4:3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do--living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. Peter says pagans CHOOSE to live in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, etc.
Christians also can choose.

You said: Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 11 that those that partake of the Lord's Supper unworthily among them are weak, sickly, and die.
Peter makes a distinction between the way we use to live, and the way we should live.

My reply: There were people there getting drunk at the gathering for the Lord’s Supper. They also were eating and not caring about the poor and hungry, while they ate before them. How do you think this proves all are totally depraved? How does what you say here disprove anything that I said? It does not.

Did you read the post? It was stated clearly. You gave a verse to consider, which had to do with believers, and the point was made that even believers must put away sin.

Your effort was to show that man "chooses to sin," rather than "he has no choice. How does that differ from believing that man will, because of who and what he is...choose to sin?

I said: For we did at one time live like that, but we did not come to know Christ while we were indulging in impurity…we came to know Christ when we HEARD of him

You said: When I came to Christ I was in the thick of sin. I was a drug addict, an alcoholic, and perhaps worst of all...a heavy metal musician...lol.

My reply: I repeated only what the word of God says, yet you try to contradict the word of God? So, you are saying different than the word of God, that you came to know Christ WHILE you were shooting up, or putting drugs in your nose? That is when you came to know Christ? Did you come to know Christ WHILE you were thinking of the lyrics of your heavy metal music?

My answer centers around this statement:

but we did not come to know Christ while we were indulging in impurity

This is a denial that man sins and therefore needs redemption at all.

Are you going to tell me that you were saved when you were...pure?

I repeated only what the word of God says, yet you try to contradict the word of God?

How then have I done this? Really, general statements are just opinions, show me where I have contradicted God's word?

So, you are saying different than the word of God, that you came to know Christ WHILE you were shooting up, or putting drugs in your nose?

Where in God's word do we read anything that states that God does not save those involved in sin. Have you really given this response any thought?


Matthew 9:13

King James Version (KJV)

13But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

That is when you came to know Christ?

As I said...in the thick of it, me boyo.

Did you come to know Christ WHILE you were thinking of the lyrics of your heavy metal music?

Actually, right again! You are on a roll.

After I was saved, the Lord led me to put away music altogether, though in recent years I have "jammed" with a few old bandmates, as well as played in a Church praise team.

One of the bands I was in, of the four that were memebers, one is a preacher/minister, one is studying to be a minister through Liberty and has already preached to some extent), one has not made any type of profession...and then there is me.

Lol

What are the odds? The Church of Christ fellow wa instrumental in part, for his witnessing efforts and tracts he piled on me. But three out of four...not bad if you ask me.

You said: Concerning drugs and alcohol, I tried for years to quit. Went through counseling, programs...incarceration. And within a few months, if that, God took the desire for these things out of my life, out of my heart.
That is the power of God working in the lives of His people, removing sin, cleansing us through His power. But by the very fact that we have passage after passage commanding us not to sin, we see that putting away sin is a necessity for the believer.

My reply: That is a testimony for many. However, nowhere in the scriptures does it say that God gives us the Holy Spirit to make us believe, or to cause us to be born again when we hate Him, AS Calvinists say. THE WORD OF GOD SAYS: "...the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Acts 5:32.
John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
What you spoke here of your testimony, this does not disprove anything that I quoted from the Bible or anything I said.

And only by discussing doctrines such as the ministry of the Holy Spirit, the New Covenant, resurrection and the new birth, can we possibly hope to understand this as a whole.

Bible pong is not something that I feel ever works, but in-depth study of the major doctrines will change both hearts and views.

Do you feel that you come to an understanding of scripture apart from the Holy Spirit now?

If you are honest you will say no, "I am dependant upon God to teach me," and that would be a proper response.

So can you tell me if we are reliant upon God to teach us now, why would we be foolish enough to think that we could understand apart from His ministry...before we were saved?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I said: We heard and were TAUGHT, with regard to our former way of life, to put off our old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires, to be made new in the attitude of our minds, and to put on the new self, created to be like in true righteousness and holiness.


You said: So when we look at the commands of God to put away sin, do we go to the extreme that we "are on our own?" That we have to make the effort to put away our former conversation in order to please God...with no help from God?

My reply: We cannot stop sinning without God. I do not know where you would get that from what I say. There is sin God will take away from you after you are saved, with your wanting. However, that does not mean we cannot choose to believe in God after learning of Him through Jesus Christ. It does NOT mean we cannot start obeying in any way before we are saved! Even some non-Christians can give up drugs and alcohol. Even a fornicator can go to get a marriage certificate to get married so that he is obeying God.

We cannot stop sinning without God.

But we can...before we are saved?

I do not know where you would get that from what I say.

Which is why I spend the time I do in discussing such issues.

There is sin God will take away from you after you are saved, with your wanting.

So we have to give the Lord a "helping hand, is that it? We can ignore such verses as:


Philippians 1:6

King James Version (KJV)

6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

However, that does not mean we cannot choose to believe in God after learning of Him through Jesus Christ.

Actually, it is salvation through Christ we learn of. Even those who hate God...believe in Him.

It does NOT mean we cannot start obeying in any way before we are saved!

There is only one act of obedience required: obedience to the Gospel, and all that entails.

Even some non-Christians can give up drugs and alcohol.

And this makes them not to be sinners? The one time when I was able, after rehab, to go nearly five months without drugs and alcohol...was I at that point not considered a sinner before God?

Even a fornicator can go to get a marriage certificate to get married so that he is obeying God.

But he is still an unsaved sinner. That he gets married does not make him guiltless of sexual sin.

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

You said: First, we have to recognize sin in our lives, and that is accomplished through the word and the Spirit. When I was first saved, I thought the sin in my life was very little. Sure, I smoked, I cussed, but I felt confident that I could put these things away.
And one day the Lord spoke to my heart, and revealed a person I had never noticed before. A selfish man. A hateful man. An angry man, ready to take his anger out on anybody that might...offend me.
It was an eye-opener. I went from looking down on those around me that smoked, drank, cussed...to looking down on the person I was. I had to admit that some of these "pagans," concerning certain issues, came closer to having a heart like God's than I did.
I don't mean to say that they were saved, but that when I contrasted my actions and the feelings I harbored in my heart, I was convicted of sin.

My reply: What you say about the Lord speaking to your heart, you say “the Lord” so, you must of known and heard SOMETHING about Jesus before He helped you give up sin? Why do you want to give the impression that Jesus came from nowhere to you, and that He helped you without your wanting? Did you ever hear of God before? Did you think about Him and call out to Him? Calvinists say God saves us without our WANTING, and while we HATE Him. That, of course, it not biblical. It is against the Word.

What you say about the Lord speaking to your heart, you say “the Lord” so, you must of known and heard SOMETHING about Jesus before He helped you give up sin?

The account I gave speaks of after my salvation, not before.

Why do you want to give the impression that Jesus came from nowhere to you, and that He helped you without your wanting?

I had heard of God and of His Christ when I was young. I heard about God all through my life.

But when I sought to give up those things in my life, I did not turn to Him...I turned to man, and man was incapable, for all his medical and psychological knowledge, to help me put down that which I was in bondage to.

Here you seek to cloud the facts by inserting something I never said. I will reiterate:

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Once man hears, he then has two choices, to repent, or reject.

I fell under convviction, not by an intellectual assessment of facts and existing conditions, but under conviction which Jesus foretold, by the work of the Holy Spirit.

You can search scripture for verses to deny this simple, basic truth, but you will fail. And in the meantime, you will lose precious time in your studies, because you have gotten hung up on one doctrine.

Did you think about Him and call out to Him?

When I fell under conviction, I did the only thing I knew I could: I went forward, fell on my knees, and asked God to forgive me. Sweating, trembling, and in tears, because I knew at that point something I did not know before: I was separated from God and knew that if I did not seek Him out right then, all that awaited me was the blackness of darkness...forever.

Of course, that last bit just describes the simple realization that I was hell bound...lol.

Calvinists say God saves us without our WANTING, and while we HATE Him.

Talk to them about it.

That, of course, it not biblical. It is against the Word.

Not entirely. Did you first love God, or did He first love you? Answer quick.

Don't have to really think about that, do you. Because that is exactly what scripture teaches, that we love Him because He first loved us.

Continued...

 

[psalms109:31]

The only ones who will come is those who listen and learn from the word of life the seed planting in us through His word. How can we listen and learn if there is no one preaching and no one sent. God did many things to call His messengers through a burning bush. God still uses miracles even today to call His messengers and it is through the miracle of a depraved life changed by words that quicken us make us alive to be able to do what God asks of us.

When we walk away from Jesus Christ the words of God made flesh we walk away from life eternal for there is no life in any other praise Jesus.

John 6:68
Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.

Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”


1 Timothy 1:15
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.

 

[Moriah]

Did you see the quoting instructions given in the other thread? It is pretty simple, and will actually save you some time. Give it a try.

You said: Did you see the quoting instructions given in the other thread? It is pretty simple, and will actually save you some time. Give it a try.

My reply: I know how to use it now. I probably will use it sometimes. However, most of the times I choose to copy and paste to my word program, then answer each question individually, so that I can go through each question and in my own time, even leaving my computer and the site if I have to do other things. I hope you will learn to like my format.

I said: Not all are dogs and pigs.

You said: Those that Peter refer to here are.

My reply: Of course, Peter is referring to the dogs and pigs. Peter is explaining about those WHO LEFT THE STRAIGHT WAY.

You said: just not in the text:
2 Peter:
17These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

My reply: You have not proven that Peter is not speaking of the depraved.

You said: The reservation of the saved?
1 Peter 1:4
King James Version (KJV)
4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
So does Peter contradict himself? Not if you keep those he speaks about in their proper domain.
Do we retain our salvation?

My reply: Peter NEVER contradicts himself. In addition, people can lose their salvation.

You said: The target of the false teachers? Those that seek after God.
They are servants of corruption, not servants of God.

My reply: Who said they are servants of God?! In addition, false teachers do not just hurt those that seek after God, but also those who might have.

You said: The passage deals with false teachers, not born again believers.

I said: PETER IS EXPLAINING ABOUT THOSE WHO LEFT THE STRAIGHT WAY. If they were not once saved, then how could they of known the Lord and Savior? 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

You said: Again, just not in the text. You make this...
20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
...mean that all that hear the Gospel...are saved.

My reply: I am speaking of what is in the text. You are speaking of things that are going off the topic, and not only that, are you admitting here that people can "hear" the gospel and not be saved? Calvin and Luther say that is NOT possible.

You said: They have "the knowledge of the Lord and Savior," which does not equate to salvation, And how one can possibly see the descriptions given of these false teachers and conclude they are saved is beyond me.

My reply: How you think that someone can know the Lord and then LEAVE the Way and not be once saved is strange indeed, especially since Lutherans and Calvinists teach that we do not KNOW Jesus until AFTER we are born again. Are you suggesting these were demons that just looked like humans? Lol I have debated people who have actually believed that.

I said: PETER IS EXPLAINING ABOUT THOSE WHO LEFT THE STRAIGHT WAY. If they were not once saved, then how could they of known the Lord and Savior? 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

You said: Within the text we do not see "that they know the Lord Jesus."
They have knowledge of the Lord, big difference. And when we look at the thrust of what Peter is saying, that becomes clear.

My reply: I will capitalize and make bold where I want to highlight and draw your attention:

1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh[c] and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.
13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer,who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.” 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

This passage is about false prophets, false teachers, and any and all people who are deceived by them and follow what they do. Do you not understand now that you cannot keep saying I take something out of context?

 

[Iconoclast]

I saw that!!! :laugh:

Just checking on you brother...you passed the test....extra home fries for you now :applause::laugh::laugh:

 

[Darrell C]

You said: Paul gives very specific commands concerning the things that born again believers are to put away, not simply avoid doing:
Do not sin if you get angry. We can at times get angry, the question is, will the fruit of the Spirit win over the way we have behaved in our former conversation. I trained myself for years in this area, and this has been one of the most difficult things to obey for me, especially when it comes to forums, where oftentimes we speak and act as we would never think to do if we were having a face to face conversation. I try to keep this thought in mind when speaking with others on the forums, "Would I say this if this person was standing in front of me?"

My reply: Some things should cause you to raise your voice. Just so you know, not all capital letters mean one is yelling, and not all exclamation points are screaming. Jesus and John the baptizer called people vipers. I speak the same in these forums as I do in person. One must remember too, that this IS a debate group that we choose to be in. I am not debating people who do not want to be debated.

One difference there: you are not John the Baptist, and you are not Jesus Christ.

And you are not excused from the command of scripture to love your brother.

You are not given the role of judge, and to decide who is saved and who is not, therefore justifying a presentation that does not in any way replicate the work of those that have been made able ministers of the New Covenant.

You posted many verses to justify your behavior, which, by the way, many of which were included in a sunday school lesson to combat the thought that we are not to debate with those that have doctrine that differs from ours, however, when it comes to how the members of Jesus Christ, His Body, act toward each other...there is not one verse that will justify some of things that come out of the mouths of supposed...Christians.

There are however, explicit and easily recognized commands to the contrary.



Colossians 4:6

King James Version (KJV)

Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.


That is the goal for the believer. We do not have to agree with everyone concerning doctrine, but we do have to individually seek to obey God's word.

Do you think that Paul enjoyed confronting Peter concerning his hypocrisy, when Peter as much as denied salvation to the Gentiles by dis-associating himself from them? When he fell under the influence of Judaizers?

I say no, but that it probably broke his heart. There are times when there is a need for direct confrontation among even the Body of Christ, but this is usually done by those that are in leadership, and it is not the goal.

The goal is that by sound doctrine the Body is built up...not torn down.

I speak the same in these forums as I do in person.

I doubt that very much.

One must remember too, that this IS a debate group that we choose to be in. I am not debating people who do not want to be debated.

Not all here wish to debate. Some come here to learn of Christ, and yes...even unbelievers.

Has it occurred to you that unbelievers come here because God is working in there hearts, and what is it that they find?

Biting and devouring. Boy, that is really going to make them want to learn more of Christ...won't it?

If the Body seems to be in such disagreement, and they see no grace in the Body...what impression does one think they will be left with?



Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

You said: Balance that with the commands given to the Church, and awareness of sin will lead to the putting away of those sins. We can grieve the Spirit, and quench the Spirit, putting our desires before the work He has begun and seeks to do in our hearts and lives.

My reply: If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner? That is the word of God.

And your point wouls be...what exactly?

Have you given any consideration to the context of the passage, or is it sufficient to use this as a verse to prove a point?

You indeed quote the word of God, but only that which serves your purpose.



1 Peter 4:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?


How about this verse, where it is clear that those that have obeyed the Gospel are contrasted with those that have not?

Christ taught a many/few ratio among men. But He is clear that He will not leave nor forsake, nor reject those...that obey the Gospel. The Judaizer mindset is such that they make salvation partner with their own works, and though the possibility that they should ever fall is never given a thought, they take glee in rejecting that which scripture makes abundantly clear: apart from Christ man cannot be saved. And no work of man is ever associated with the work of Christ, He alone died on that Cross.


18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?


Was it easy for the Son of God to bring redemption to man?

19Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.


The Judaizer would have us commit the keeping of our souls to works we have to do.

Rather than that ONE sacrifice which brought forgiveness, which the law, and the keeping of the law could not, and still cannot...do.

Continued...

 

[Moriah]

I had heard of God and of His Christ when I was young. I heard about God all through my life.

So, you have heard of Him, while you were NOT indulging in impurity. You prove what I said right there.

But when I sought to give up those things in my life, I did not turn to Him...I turned to man, and man was incapable, for all his medical and psychological knowledge, to help me put down that which I was in bondage to.
Here you seek to cloud the facts by inserting something I never said. I will reiterate:

I do no cloud anything. You are now confirming what I have been saying.

Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Once man hears, he then has two choices, to repent, or reject.

Again, you confirm what I have been saying, and now you rebuke Calvinism and Luther with what you just said.

You can search scripture for verses to deny this simple, basic truth, but you will fail. And in the meantime, you will lose precious time in your studies, because you have gotten hung up on one doctrine.

My reply: You are greatly confused.

When I fell under conviction, I did the only thing I knew I could: I went forward, fell on my knees, and asked God to forgive me. Sweating, trembling, and in tears, because I knew at that point something I did not know before: I was separated from God and knew that if I did not seek Him out right then, all that awaited me was the blackness of darkness...forever.

You fell under conviction by the One you had learned about before. Unless of course, you want to go against the scriptures that say when we learned of Him.

Not entirely. Did you first love God, or did He first love you? Answer quick.

Why do you say answer quick? You, I, no one would know about God unless He sent His prophets to tell us about Him. Calvinists and Lutherans say we are born not capable of learning of God and then believing in Him. That is their total depravity doctrine. You lose sight of it. You even write things that confirm it that total depravity is not true.

 

[Moriah]

Have you given any consideration to the context of the passage, or is it sufficient to use this as a verse to prove a point?

You indeed quote the word of God, but only that which serves your purpose.

Darrell,

With comments and replies to me like that, that is why I am going to keep away from you and your posts to me, for a while anyway. I hope that you will change the way you speak to me.

 

[Darrell C]

You said: For those of us that go on forums, we have opportunity to please God in obedience to these commands. The opportunity for spiritual growth here is unparalleled, as we seek to do that which we already know is pleasing in His sight.

My reply: Of course, you think someone is being mean when he or she tells you that you are wrong.

I have no problem with someone telling me I am wrong. 99% of all posts I do get responses telling me I am wrong.

However, that is false judgment of you.

Is it? Because you have concluded that I "think someone is being mean" you have also concluded that I have falsely judged?

Only those that are intent in sharing your doctrine because they are intent on promoting their own would even come close to saying that yu have presented a picture of love and of grace, properly representing Christ in both His word, commands, and deeds.

But will you honestly tell me that how you respond to posts has been in the manner of Christ or the Apostles?

Stop thinking negatively about others, for that could be what is causing you to have false judgments.

Well, it is because I have a low view of what man is capable of...lol, that I have a negative view of others. But understand, I judge only myself, and I am my own worst critic.

If you continue to think that someone is mean and hateful for speaking the truth to you, those thoughts could keep you from learning the truth.

Just do me a favor: go back and listen to yourself. Then tell me that you have been a picture of biblical compassion and have striven to see God's word, rather than your own doctrine...promoted.

Don't take my word for it, ask God.

Consider carefully what and why Apostle Paul said, “Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?”

Now carefully consider the error that Paul is addressing.

Which is Judaism.

Care to tell me how our differing doctrines match the doctrine of this epistle? I know the irony is not recognized, but, it is there.

It is only out of love that I speak to you and others here.

I will not question your motives, I believe you are sincere in them. However, I would suggest that you learn a lesson that I have learned the hard way: knowledge puffeth up.

You have questioned others as to "what sin they have put away," yet seem oblivious to the picture you present of yourself.

Most here are going to see someone with a beam in their eye trying to discern motes. And as I said...don't take my word for it.

If I did not do so out of love, why else would I want to share what God has revealed to me?

There are many reasons, the first being a desire to vaunt oneself before others. This is why there are so many false teachers: because they wish to have the preeminence among others.

But, as I said, I will not question the motives of others, though the end result I will definitely make a determination about.

Why would I want you to get closer to the Truth with the Truth, if not for love?

Well, do you think that the attitude that has been conveyed across the monitor will motivate any to really care what doctrine you bring?

It will draw two responses: those that agree with your theology, and those who wish to address what they fell is in error.

Stop judging me; you are not qualified to judge me, for you proved that by false judgments, and you prove it by not obeying, for God tells you not to judge His servant.

I do not need to judge you, God's word will do that, and the Spirit of God will do that.

I am a witness, not a judge. The question is whether that which we testify of lines up with what is taught in scripture.

I am not above being corrected, but, I am above simply takling a man's word...for anything.

Just obey God, and stop thinking bad about others.

Good advice. Is that for me alone?

Continued...

 

[Moriah]

I am not going to debate someone who only wants to bombard me with personal attacks. I love speaking about God’s Truth. I hope that I can comment and reply to people’s posts, and have others who want to reply and comment back to talk about the scriptures.

 

[Darrell C]

I said: The pagans choose to live like they do, and we who are saved chose to be reconciled to God, through Jesus Christ.

You said: We responded to the conviction of the Holy Spirit, but we did not save ourselves. Meaning, because we chose to receive Christ, we cannot think that it was we ourselves that initiated the relationship.

My reply: Where did I say we saved ourselves? If you know, I did not say that, then why imply I said that by replying back to what I said with those comments? Is that a tactic to make someone appear wrong?
My Master sent people to give me a message; I got the message and did what my Master said to do.

And how about God's personal involvement?

Will you still insist that you of your own efforts...believed all by yourself?

You said: Had God not exposed us to His word and will, we had not have had faith. Had God not manifested in the flesh, died for us, and given us something to believe in, we had not had belief, for we would not have had anything to believe in.

My reply: Of course, and that is what I have said in this board.

Not really.

You continue to attribute to man the capacity to know spiritual things apart from the Spirit of God, which is not taught in scripture concerning salvation.

You said: We were going about as the Gentiles, a euphemistic term to describe those that do not know God. But God gave us the ability to understand spiritual things when we were in a condition where we could not understand.

My reply: Many Gentiles heard about God and what Moses taught. There were God fearing Gentiles, yet they were not included as a people belonging to God. God who knows our hearts, shows that He accepts us when He gives us His Spirit. THAT is God’s Word! See Acts 5:32.

And name one of those that were born again. Explain to me why the Old Testament saints were not, without us, made perfect?

You see, there is more to consider than just repentance, faith, and belief.

An unbeliever can repent...and not be saved.

An unbeliever can have faith in God...and not be saved.

An unbeliever can believe in God, but if he does not believe in Christ, he will not be saved.

You express the belief that men can of themselves come to a saving knowledge apart from the work which Christ said the Comforter would do, thereby making repentance, faith, and belief results of man's effort.

Will I disagree with that? Of course. Not that I can be right, and you wrong, but because this is just part of the basis of belief, and that which I hold to.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I am not going to debate someone who only wants to bombard me with personal attacks. I love speaking about God’s Truth. I hope that I can comment and reply to people’s posts, and have others who want to reply and comment back to talk about the scriptures.

Wait. When you attack, it is out of love. When I attack...it is just a character flaw.

lol

Suit yourself. I will leave that which I have said for you to judge, and if this is your judgment, okay, I will leave off.

God bless.

 

[Skandelon]

Blah, blah, blah. Cut to the chase.

The strongest points of one's argument are not typically reflected in the portion that his opponents address, but in the portions ignored...especially with statements such as "blah, blah, blah..."

In 25 words or less: This "ability to respond" with which the words of the Gospel endow a hearer. Is it something the hearer did NOT possess before the words were sent his way?

How can someone have the ability to respond to a message they have not heard? But I think what you are asking is if the ability to respond to the message is 'natural' (of the flesh) or 'spiritual' (of God). And the answer to that is the latter. Why? Because the the message itself is Spiritual and thus OF GOD, so any response to it is thusly spiritual in nature. The power is in the messenger and His message, not in the one hearing it. That is what makes it 'spiritual' in nature. That is why it baffles me when you accuse us of believing men redeem themselves or come to faith by the flesh. That makes no sense, when we clearly affirm that faith comes by a spiritual working...the gospel! "Faith cometh by hearing His WORD."

The mere ability of man to resist and rebel against that message doesn't make it less powerful (or non-spiritual) in nature.

It is like asking if it was within Jonah's ability to preach to Nineveh prior to being called to Nineveh, versus prior to spending three days in a fish.

He was always physically able to go preach to Nineveh, but no one would suggest that he would have 'naturally' (by his own flesh) just decided to go do that 'on his own' (which is equal to what you falsely accuse of us believing about free will in Salvation). Jonah had to be CALLED to go. After he was called to go to Nineveh was he then able to go? Of course. He CHOSE to rebel. Does that act of rebellion somehow prove God's call for Jonah to go preach was insufficient or powerless? No. It only goes to prove that God leaves room for a free response. Could God have snapped his fingers and magically changed Jonah's mind? Sure, but God doesn't work like that. He uses circumstances to persuade and convince men to change their minds....thus the storm and big fish. Now, after the three days in the fish, was Jonah able to rebel again and still refused to go? Sure, and maybe God would have either killed him and gotten someone else, or intervened in some other way to bring him to his senses. Either way, you have a parallel example of how God calls men to a response.

 

[Aaron]

Got swamped this week.

Because the the message itself is Spiritual and thus OF GOD, so any response to it is thusly spiritual in nature. The power is in the messenger and His message, not in the one hearing it. That is what makes it 'spiritual' in nature. That is why it baffles me when you accuse us of believing men redeem themselves or come to faith by the flesh. That makes no sense, when we clearly affirm that faith comes by a spiritual working...the gospel! "Faith cometh by hearing His WORD."

The mere ability of man to resist and rebel against that message doesn't make it less powerful (or non-spiritual) in nature.

It is like asking if it was within Jonah's ability to preach to Nineveh prior to being called to Nineveh, versus prior to spending three days in a fish.

He was always physically able to go preach to Nineveh, but no one would suggest that he would have 'naturally' (by his own flesh) just decided to go do that 'on his own' (which is equal to what you falsely accuse of us believing about free will in Salvation). Jonah had to be CALLED to go. After he was called to go to Nineveh was he then able to go? Of course. He CHOSE to rebel. Does that act of rebellion somehow prove God's call for Jonah to go preach was insufficient or powerless? No. It only goes to prove that God leaves room for a free response. Could God have snapped his fingers and magically changed Jonah's mind? Sure, but God doesn't work like that. He uses circumstances to persuade and convince men to change their minds....thus the storm and big fish. Now, after the three days in the fish, was Jonah able to rebel again and still refused to go? Sure, and maybe God would have either killed him and gotten someone else, or intervened in some other way to bring him to his senses. Either way, you have a parallel example of how God calls men to a response.

Let me ask the question this way. Do men possess the ability to receive the Gospel by nature like hearing men can respond to speech, or are they like deaf men who need their hearing restored in order to receive the Gospel?

If it is the latter, then the work of the Spirit in the preaching of the Gospel is a simple enabling, like a temporary opening of the ears. It's still an irresistible work of grace, you've just reduced it to something that doesn't save.

If it is the former, then you're adding a pagan mystique to the preaching of the Gospel, where the mere hearing of the "words" by itself transforms an existing carnal trait into a spiritual one. Preaching is more like a sorcerer's incantation in your estimation than like the sowing of a field.

Does the seed contain the power to plow and till the ground and cultivate itself? Can pearls transform swine? You say yes, because the seed and the pearls are "powerful," by which you mean magical. But the testimony of the Scriptures is that the seed must fall on ground which the husbandman has prepared beforehand, and swine will trample pearls under their feet.