Let's talk about Ellen White - SDA prophet

[targus]

On what basis do SDAs believe Ellen White to be a prophet in the biblical sense of the word?

 

[BobRyan]

The basis for even knowing and accepting any prophet is the 1Cor 12 basis of spiritual gifts. Turns out the gift of prophecy is one of them.

1Thess 5:19-20 says that we are neither to "quench the Spirit" nor are we to "despise prophetic messages".

1Cor 14 says that when the NT church met "EACH ONE had a teaching, a revelation, a tongue" - yet we know that we have no text of scripture handed down to us today from "each one at the church of Corinth". Thus we have one of many examples that the gift of prophecy did not necessarily make one a "Bible writer".

Rev 19 states that the saints are known as those who have the Testimony of Jesus - which is (according to the text) the "Spirit of prophecy"

1 John 4 tells us to test the prophets. We are not to accept everyone who claims the gift of prophecy.

The first test of a prophet is the Is 8:20 test "to the Law and to the testimony if they speak not according to this word - they have no light"

1Cor 14 states that prophecy is "a sign for believers" - that is those who hold to the same understanding of the Bible - a common doctrinal POV that can be used to test the prophets.

For that reason (obviously) a context where not all Christians are in agreement on all doctrines - you have no basis for insisting that they all accept a methodist, or baptist, or presbyterian, or Adventist as a prophet.

Just stating the obvious so far.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Agnus_Dei]

...so what 'prophetic messages' has Ellen enlighten the Christian world with lately? what new 'revelation' did God choose to withhold from us until Ellen was 'granted' this special 'power' to see this revelation?

In XC
-

 

[targus]

1 John 4 tells us to test the prophets. We are not to accept everyone who claims the gift of prophecy.

The first test of a prophet is the Is 8:20 test "to the Law and to the testimony if they speak not according to this word - they have no light"

Let's compare some of her words to Scripture then.

"Enoch first received instruction from Noah, and he observed the law of God, and served him with singleness of heart." Ellen White, Review and Herald, Apr. 29, 1875.

"Enoch's translation to Heaven just before the destruction of the world by a flood, represents the translation of all the living righteous from the earth previous to its destruction by fire." Ellen White, Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3, p. 59.

What does the Bible tell us about Enoch and Noah?

When did Enoch live and when did Noah live?

When did Enoch live and when was the flood?

 

[BobRyan]

Targus - my first post was on the ABC's of this subject. Were you able to read and accept the Bible points listed there?

As for the books Ellen White wrote - those are available still today.

But in your post - you provide a periodical - a typo in a quote from the Review and Herald - sent out April 29, 1875. Obviously there never were any SDAs that thought that Noah was a contemporary with Adam. And apart from a typo in a periodical - you don't find any such thing from Ellen White either.

Is it your claim that something about the gift of prophecy ALSO prevents non-prophetic non-inspired editors and publishers from ever having a typo in their text??

Which Bible text makes that case?

Here is the article you quoted -

The knowledge of the law of God was preserved from Adam to Noah, and from Noah to Abraham and from Abraham to Moses, for the benefit of all who should live upon the earth. The blessings upon the patriarch Abraham for obedience are repeated to Isaac in these words: "And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statues [statutes], and my laws." {RH, April 29, 1875 par. 6}

Enoch first received instruction from Noah [Adam], and he observed the law of God, and served him with singleness of heart. He became so pure in character that the Lord communicated his will to him, and through holy vision revealed the great events connected with Christ's second appearing, and also the wickedness that would prevail just prior to the end. Enoch was a faithful preacher of righteousness, and sought to turn men from the transgression of the law to faithful obedience. He walked with God three hundred years, giving to the world a faithful example in a pure and spotless life, which was in marked contrast with that rebellious and self-willed generation who boasted of their open disregard of God's holy law. His testimony was not regarded because men loved sin better than holiness. Enoch was borne by angels to Heaven without seeing death. {RH, April 29, 1875 par. 7}

In the destruction of the inhabitants of the old world by the flood is clearly represented the faith of all those who continue to transgress the law of God. Enoch's translation to Heaven represents the commandment-keeping people of God who will be alive upon the earth when Christ shall come the second time, and who will be glorified in the sight of those who hated them because they would keep the commandments of God. These also will be translated to Heaven without seeing death, as Enoch and Elijah were. {RH, April 29, 1875 par. 8}

 

[BobRyan]

...so what 'prophetic messages' has Ellen enlighten the Christian world with lately? what new 'revelation' did God choose to withhold from us until Ellen was 'granted' this special 'power' to see this revelation?

In XC
-

Ellen White died July 16 1915. She is the most translated American female author in all of American history.

She has not been writing at all since then. :smilewinkgrin:

God showed her in vision and number of amazing things - including the war in heaven, the creation of the world, the flood, the life of Christ, the tribulation, the second coming, the millennium, the new Jerusalem, the lake of fire - second death... etc.

She was also shown a number of health and education related subjects related to not smoking, vegeterian diet, the importance of fresh air, water, exercise and various medical treatments for common diseases of her day.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Jon-Marc]

On what basis do SDAs believe Ellen White to be a prophet in the biblical sense of the word?

Because like other mere mortals who have started religions, such people are deceived by the father of lies.

 

[JMSR]

She was also shown a number of health and education related subjects related to not smoking, vegeterian diet, the importance of fresh air, water, exercise and various medical treatments for common diseases of her day.

Are you saying she was given a revelation about these subjects?

 

[targus]

But in your post - you provide a periodical - a typo in a quote from the Review and Herald - sent out April 29, 1875.

When was this "typo" discovered?

"Obviously there never were any SDAs that thought that Noah was a contemporary with Adam. And apart from a typo in a periodical - you don't find any such thing from Ellen White either.

Ya think?

Why then did Ellen White also write:

"God determined to purify the world by a flood; but in mercy and love He gave the antediluvians a probation of one hundred and twenty years. During this time, while the ark was in building, the voices of Noah, Enoch, and many others were heard in warning and entreaty. And every blow struck on the ark was a warning message." Australasian Union Conference Record, Sep. 15, 1902.

and this:

"Enoch's translation to Heaven just before the destruction of the world by a flood, represents the translation of all the living righteous from the earth previous to its destruction by fire." Ellen White, Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3, p. 59.

So 700 years or so is "just before"?

 

[BobRyan]

Obviously there never were any SDAs that thought that Noah was a contemporary with Adam. And apart from a typo in a periodical - you don't find any such thing from Ellen White either.

Ya think?

Why then did Ellen White also write:

"God determined to purify the world by a flood; but in mercy and love He gave the antediluvians a probation of one hundred and twenty years. During this time, while the ark was in building, the voices of Noah, Enoch, and many others were heard in warning and entreaty. And every blow struck on the ark was a warning message." Australasian Union Conference Record, Sep. 15, 1902.

and this:

"Enoch's translation to Heaven just before the destruction of the world by a flood, represents the translation of all the living righteous from the earth previous to its destruction by fire." Ellen White, Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3, p. 59.

So 700 years or so is "just before"?

What part of "Noah was not a contemporary with Adam" is that supposed to address??

 

[targus]

What part of "Noah was not a contemporary with Adam" is that supposed to address??

Did Ellen White and do SDAs think that Enoch was contemporary with Noah?

 

[BobRyan]

I have never heard any SDA (including Ellen White) argue that Noah and Enoch were contemporaries.

The only thing that I have seen is the single (1 out of thousands) typo that you find now and then from periodicals.

For example

God determined to purify the world by a flood; but in mercy and love He gave the antediluvians a probation of one hundred and twenty years. During this time, while the ark was in building, the voices of Noah, Enoch [Methuselah], and many others were heard in warning and entreaty. And every blow struck on the ark was a warning message. {AUCR, September 15, 1902 par. 8}

You seem to be casting about you for every 1-in-10,000 typo mistake you can find. Are you not aware that there are "actual" beliefs that SDAs hold in contrast to non-SDAs???

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

I have never heard any SDA (including Ellen White) argue that Noah and Enoch were contemporaries.

I already gave you the evidence that Ellen White believed that Enoch and Noah were contemporaries.

"God determined to purify the world by a flood; but in mercy and love He gave the antediluvians a probation of one hundred and twenty years. During this time, while the ark was in building, the voices of Noah, Enoch, and many others were heard in warning and entreaty. And every blow struck on the ark was a warning message." Australasian Union Conference Record, Sep. 15, 1902.

and this:

"Enoch's translation to Heaven just before the destruction of the world by a flood, represents the translation of all the living righteous from the earth previous to its destruction by fire." Ellen White, Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3, p. 59.

So 700 years or so is "just before"?

Or is all of that just a "typo" too?

 

[targus]

So far we have two typo's to explain the error.

Someone printed "Enoch" when Ellen White meant "Adam"?

And "Enoch" when Ellen White meant "Methuselah"?

What is your proof that these are "typo's" and not ERROR?

 

[BobRyan]

Ellen White produced 100,000 pages of text coming from 50,000 pages of hand written manuscript.

She had a lot of things to say about Noah, Adam and Enoch and not one single time does she ever make an argument for their being contemporaries as if that were the point of the message.

Thus - we have not one single Adventist today faithfully following Ellen White - and somehow believing that Adam Noah and Enoch were contemporary to each other.

I guess your "real question" is how is it that no Adventists ever believed that Adam, Noah and Enoch were contemporaries given these two typo's.

Is that what you are asking?

First of all - there were a lot more than two typo's in the history of publishing the segment of 60,000 pages that were made public. (Recall that a number of her testimonies were counsel to individuals that were never published)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

She had a lot of things to say about Noah, Adam and Enoch and not one single time does she ever make an argument for their being contemporaries as if that were the point of the message.

You sure?

You haven't explained this one away with your "typo" excuse yet.

"Enoch's translation to Heaven just before the destruction of the world by a flood, represents the translation of all the living righteous from the earth previous to its destruction by fire." Ellen White, Spiritual Gifts, vol. 3, p. 59.

 

[BobRyan]

Nothing to explain. Enoch was translated as an example of those who will live at the 1Thess 4 event that Paul describes as "WE who are ALIVE and REMAIN".

Adventists believe Enoch was taken to heaven - only after having Methuselah - and Methuselah lived almost 1000 years (and died the year of the flood).

Enoch was taken to heaven after only 300 years.

All Adventists believe this -- and always have.

Why not pick a doctrine where we differ?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

Nothing to explain. Enoch was translated as an example of those who will live at the 1Thess 4 event that Paul describes as "WE who are ALIVE and REMAIN".

Adventists believe Enoch was taken to heaven - only after having Methuselah - and Methuselah lived almost 1000 years (and died the year of the flood).

Enoch was taken to heaven after only 300 years.

All Adventists believe this -- and always have.

Why not pick a doctrine where we differ?

in Christ,

Bob

"Enoch's translation to Heaven just before the destruction of the world by a flood..."

So Enoch and Noah were contemporaries?

 

[Marcia]

Info On Ellen White from
http://lifeassuranceministries.org/studies/prophet.html

• In Counsels on Diets and Foods, p. 148, she said that God gave the children of Israel meat and gluttony produced the plague. Numbers 11:33 (NKJV) says, "But while the meat was still between their teeth, before it was chewed, the wrath of the Lord was aroused against the people, and Lord struck the people with a very great plague."
• In Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 155, she said that we should never say that we are saved. 1 John 5:13 (NKJV) says, "These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God."
• In Desire of Ages, p. 753, she said that before the crucifixion, Jesus “could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father’s acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal.” In John 10:17, 18 (NKJV), Jesus says, "Therefore, my Father loves me because I lay down my life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father." (See also, Luke 24:7 and John 2:19.)

A prophet speaking according to God’s word would also not say something at one time and say just the opposite at another time. Here are some examples of Ellen White’s contradiction of her own words:

• In Desire of Ages, p. 645 she says that Judas had a conviction to confess during the footwashing. In Evangelism, p. 275, she says that Judas did not have a conviction to confess during footwashing.
• In Spiritual Gifts, v. 1, p. 58, she says that the nails went through Jesus’ bones. Forty years later, in Desire of Ages, p. 744, she says that no bones were broken.
• She believed in and wrote about the “shut door” doctrine for several years after the “great disappointment” and then retracted it. This was a doctrine that taught that there was no need for evangelism because Jesus had already decided who was going to be saved and who was going to be lost. For more information on this topic, see the following website: http://www.ellenwhite.org. <MORE>

 

[DHK]

From a SDA tract deceptively titled Saved By Grace: "Christ says to every man in this world what He said to the rich young ruler: ‘If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments,’ Matthew 19:17. In other words, THE STANDARD FOR ADMISSION INTO HEAVEN IS A CHARACTER BUILT ACCORDING TO THE TEN SPECIFICATIONS, OR COMMANDMENTS, OF GOD’S LAW. ... He can lift you up to the place where the requirements of the law are met in you. ... THE MASTER BUILDER WILL STAND RIGHT WITH YOU AND IN YOU, AND SEE TO IT PERSONALLY THAT YOUR LIFE COMES UP TO THE REQUIREMENTS OF GOD’S LAW" (Charles T. Everson, Saved By Grace, pp. 45-46).
From SDA correspondence courses. "It is not the work of the gospel to weaken the claims of God’s holy law, but to bring men up to where they can keep its precepts" (Prophetic Guidance Correspondence Course, Lesson 10, p. 36).

This is a denial of the gospel of grace. It is a gospel of works.

For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God not of works.
But the SDA disregards this important Biblical teaching.