Let's talk about Ellen White - SDA prophet

[BobRyan]

"Enoch's translation to Heaven just before the destruction of the world by a flood..."

So Enoch and Noah were contemporaries?

Not any more than "behold I come quickly" makes you a contemporary with John the revelator.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Here is Marcia's first example of a problem with Ellen White


Numbers 11

1 Now when the people complained, it displeased the LORD; for the LORD heard it, and His anger was aroused. So the fire of the LORD burned among them, and consumed some in the outskirts of the camp. 2 Then the people cried out to Moses, and when Moses prayed to the LORD, the fire was quenched. 3 So he called the name of the place Taberah, because the fire of the LORD had burned among them.

4 Now the mixed multitude who were among them yielded to intense craving; so the children of Israel also wept again and said: “Who will give us meat to eat? 5 We remember the fish which we ate freely in Egypt, the cucumbers, the melons, the leeks, the onions, and the garlic; 6 but now our whole being is dried up; there is nothing at all except this manna before our eyes!”
7 Now the manna was like coriander seed, and its color like the color of bdellium. 8 The people went about and gathered it, ground it on millstones or beat it in the mortar, cooked it in pans, and made cakes of it; and its taste was like the taste of pastry prepared with oil. 9 And when the dew fell on the camp in the night, the manna fell on it.
10 Then Moses heard the people weeping throughout their families, everyone at the door of his tent; and the anger of the LORD was greatly aroused; Moses also was displeased. 11 So Moses said to the LORD, “Why have You afflicted Your servant? And why have I not found favor in Your sight, that You have laid the burden of all these people on me? 12 Did I conceive all these people? Did I beget them, that You should say to me, ‘Carry them in your bosom, as a guardian carries a nursing child,’ to the land which You swore to their fathers? 13 Where am I to get meat to give to all these people? For they weep all over me, saying, ‘Give us meat, that we may eat.’ 14 I am not able to bear all these people alone, because the burden is too heavy for me. 15 If You treat me like this, please kill me here and now—if I have found favor in Your sight—and do not let me see my wretchedness!”
The Seventy Elders


16 So the LORD said to Moses: “Gather to Me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the elders of the people and officers over them; bring them to the tabernacle of meeting, that they may stand there with you. 17 Then I will come down and talk with you there. I will take of the Spirit that is upon you and will put the same upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, that you may not bear it yourself alone. 18 Then you shall say to the people, ‘Consecrate yourselves for tomorrow, and you shall eat meat; for you have wept in the hearing of the LORD, saying, “Who will give us meat to eat? For it was well with us in Egypt.” Therefore the LORD will give you meat, and you shall eat. 19 You shall eat, not one day, nor two days, nor five days, nor ten days, nor twenty days, 20 but for a whole month, until it comes out of your nostrils and becomes loathsome to you, because you have despised the LORD who is among you, and have wept before Him, saying, “Why did we ever come up out of Egypt?”’”

Counsels on Diet and Foods: P 148

Israel's Lust for Flesh

[C.T.B.H. 43, 44] (1890) C.H. 111, 112
233. When the God of Israel brought His people out of Egypt, He withheld flesh meats from them in a great measure, but gave them bread from heaven, and water from the flinty rock. With this they were not satisfied. They loathed the food given them, and wished themselves back in Egypt, where they could sit by the fleshpots. They preferred to endure slavery, and even death, rather than to be deprived of flesh. God granted their desire, giving them flesh, and leaving them to eat till their gluttony produced a plague, from which many of them died.
149
{CD 148.3}

[/quote]

Marcia - where exactly are you claiming there is a problem??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Marcia's second example of a problem with Ellen White in the 1800's is from a book entitled "Christ's Object Lessons".

On page 155 Ellen White deals with the current issue (in the 1800's) of something called a "holy flesh" cult that believed that they were "beyond temptation" and that they had reached a state of "holy flesh".

The evil that led to Peter's fall and that shut out the Pharisee from communion with God is proving the ruin of thousands today. There is nothing so offensive to God or so dangerous to the human soul as pride and self-sufficiency. Of all sins it is the most hopeless, the most incurable.
155
{COL 154.4}
Peter's fall was not instantaneous, but gradual. Self-confidence led him to the belief that he was saved, and step after step was taken in the downward path, until he could deny his Master. Never can we safely put confidence in self or feel, this side of heaven, that we are secure against temptation. Those who accept the Saviour, however sincere their conversion, should never be taught to say or to feel that they are saved. This is misleading. Every one should be taught to cherish hope and faith; but even when we give ourselves to Christ and know that He accepts us, we are not beyond the reach of temptation. God's word declares, "Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried." Dan. 12:10. Only he who endures the trial will receive the crown of life. (James 1:12.) {COL 155.1}


Those who accept Christ, and in their first confidence say, I am saved, are in danger of trusting to themselves. They lose sight of their own weakness and their constant need of divine strength. They are unprepared for Satan's devices, and under temptation many, like Peter, fall into the very depths of sin. We are admonished, "Let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall." 1 Cor. 10:12. Our only safety is in constant distrust of self, and dependence on Christ. {COL 155.2}

It was necessary for Peter to learn his own defects of character, and his need of the power and grace of Christ. The Lord could not save him from trial, but He could have saved him from defeat. Had Peter been willing to receive Christ's warning, he would have been watching unto prayer. He would have walked with fear and trembling lest his feet should stumble. And he would have received divine help so that Satan could not have gained the victory. {COL 155.3}


It was through self-sufficiency that Peter fell; and it was through repentance and humiliation that his feet were again established. In the record of his experience every repenting sinner may find encouragement. Though Peter
156
had grievously sinned, he was not forsaken. The words of Christ were written upon his soul, "I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not." Luke 22:32. In his bitter agony of remorse, this prayer, and the memory of Christ's look of love and pity, gave him hope. Christ after His resurrection remembered Peter, and gave the angel the message for the women, "Go your way, tell His disciples and Peter that He goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see Him." Mark 16:7. Peter's repentance was accepted by the sin-pardoning Saviour. {COL 155.4}

And the same compassion that reached out to rescue Peter is extended to every soul who has fallen under temptation. It is Satan's special device to lead man into sin, and then leave him, helpless and trembling, fearing to seek for pardon. But why should we fear, when God has said, "Let him take hold of My strength, that he may make peace with Me; and he shall make peace with Me?" Isa. 27:5. Every provision has been made for our infirmities, every encouragement offered us to come to Christ. {COL 156.1}

The term "saved" in this 1800's context as used by the "holy flesh" cult - did not mean what it means today. It meant "beyond the reach of temptation".

Ellen White condemned that spirit and argued instead for the Bible doctrine on Perseverance!

And the careful read will also note that she explicitly affirms today's version of "saved" saying back then that the saints could "KNOW" that they are fully accepted by Christ.

Notice how she affirms this assurance of salvation for the saved saint (SM refers to Volume 1 of the book Selected Messages)

1SM p 391 the faith that is unto salvation is not a casual faith it is not a mere consent of the intellect, it is belief rooted in heart, that embrace Christ as a personnal Savior, assured that he can save unto the uttermost all that come unto God by Him. To believe that he will save others but will not save you is not genuine faith.;

1SM p 392 "the perishing sinner may say: 'I am a lost sinner; but Christ came to seek and to save that which was lost. He says, --- I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance ---. I am a sinner and he died upon calvary's cross to save me. I need not remain a moment longer unsaved. He died and rose again for my justification, and he will save me now. I accept the forgiveness he has promise' ".

1SM p394 "in ourselves we are sinners; but in Christ we are righteous. Having made us righteous through the imputed righteousness of Christ, God pronounces us just, he looks upon us as his dear children.

1SM p396 "every soul may say ' by his perfect obedience he has satisfied the claims of the law, and my only hope is found in looking to Him as my substitute and surety, who obeyed the law perfectly for me. By faith in his merrits I am free from the condemnation of the law. He clothes me with his righteousness which answers all the demands of the law. I am complete in Him who brings in everlasting righteousness. He presents me to God in the spotless garment of which no thread was woven by any human agent."

Here is another example of her view on this -- given in a letter to a friend of hers.

I believe in Jesus. I know my Saviour loves me, and I love my Jesus. I rest in His love, notwithstanding my imperfections. God has accepted His perfection in my behalf. He is my righteousness and I trust in His merits. I am His repenting, believing child. He has taken away my sin-stained garments and covered me with the robe of His righteousness. Clothed in this garment, I stand before the Father justified. I am of that number who are addressed as the "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit." --Letter 24, 1895, p. 3. (To "Dear Sister Eckman," May 19, 1895.) {4MR 245.3}

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In Phil 2 Christ is said to have "emptied himself" to enter into human flesh.

in Matt 24:36 Christ states that even He did not know the time of the 2nd coming.

In John 12 Christ said He could of His own self do nothing and that His words were not his own - but the FAther's Words.

In Matt 4 Christ is tempted to use His own Creator God power to turn stone into bread and provide food after 40 days of hunger. Christ refused.

Marcia's 3rd example - refers to the fact that He also did not know the results of the Cross by divine vision - He knew it only by trust in the Father.

But in ALL these cases Christ as God COULD have chosen to know it - but his mission on earth was to lay aside God power and God's infinite knowledge - to walk on earth as we must - in human flesh - subject to the pain and suffering that we live with. So that means that even if he had had no food or water for 40 days and was extremely hungry -- He still would not rely on "self" - but would hold to faith in His Father's provisions as we must.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In Desire of Ages, p. 645 she says that Judas had a conviction to confess during the footwashing. In Evangelism, p. 275, she says that Judas did not have a conviction to confess during footwashing.

Interesting.. no actual quotes... so What does it actually say? Is there really a contradiction here -- or is the web site Marcia is listing - relying on the fact that the reader simply wont look into the "details"??



Desire of Ages says that Judas "hardened his heart against repentance" instead of yielding to conviction.

Desire of Ages 645 -

DA 645
http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/...ction00000.htm/book01247.htm/chapter01320.htmhttp://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/...ction00000.htm/book01247.htm/chapter01274.htm


Before the Passover Judas had met a second time with the priests and scribes, and had closed the contract to deliver Jesus into their hands. Yet he afterward mingled with the disciples as though innocent of any wrong, and interested in the work of preparing for the feast. The disciples knew nothing of the purpose of Judas. Jesus alone could read his secret. Yet He did not expose him. Jesus hungered for his soul. He felt for him such a burden as for Jerusalem when He wept over the doomed city. His heart was crying, How can I give thee up? The constraining power of that love was felt by Judas. When the Saviour's hands were bathing those soiled feet, and wiping them with the towel, the heart of Judas thrilled through and through with the impulse then and there to confess his sin. But he would not humble himself. He hardened his heart against repentance; and the old impulses, for the moment put aside, again controlled him. Judas was now offended at Christ's act in washing the feet of His disciples. If Jesus could so humble Himself, he thought, He could not be Israel's king. All hope of worldly honor in a temporal kingdom was destroyed. Judas was satisfied that there was nothing to be gained by following Christ. After seeing Him degrade Himself, as he thought, he was confirmed in his purpose to disown Him, and confess himself deceived. He was possessed by a demon, and he resolved to complete the work he had agreed to do in betraying his Lord. {DA 645.1}

Judas, in choosing his position at table, had tried to place himself first, and Christ as a servant served him first. John, toward whom Judas had felt so much bitterness, was left till the last. But John did not take this as a rebuke or slight. As the disciples watched Christ's action, they were greatly moved. When Peter's turn came, he exclaimed with astonishment, "Lord, dost Thou wash my feet?" Christ's condescension broke his heart. He was filled with shame to think that one of the disciples was not performing this service. "What I do," Christ said, "thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter." Peter could not bear to see his Lord, whom he believed to be the Son of God, acting the part of a servant. His whole soul rose up against this humiliation.
646
He did not realize that for this Christ came into the world. With great emphasis he exclaimed, "Thou shalt never wash my feet." {DA 645.2}


Solemnly Christ said to Peter, "If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with Me." The service which Peter refused was the type of a higher cleansing. Christ had come to wash the heart from the stain of sin. In refusing to allow Christ to wash his feet, Peter was refusing the higher cleansing included in the lower. He was really rejecting his Lord. It is not humiliating to the Master to allow Him to work for our purification. The truest humility is to receive with thankful heart any provision made in our behalf, and with earnestness do service for Christ. {DA 646.1}

compared to Evangelism 275 the conviction concept in Ev 275 includes the "fountains of the soul broken up" and "every barrier that causes disunion and alienation" broken down.

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/...ction00000.htm/book01382.htm/chapter01392.htm

The Purpose of the Ordinance of Service.--Reconciliation one with another is the work for which the ordinance of feet washing was instituted. By the example of our Lord and Master, this humiliating ceremony has been made a sacred ordinance. Whenever it is celebrated, Christ is present by His Holy Spirit. It is this Spirit that brings conviction to hearts. {Ev 275.1}

As Christ celebrated this ordinance with His disciples, conviction came to the hearts of all save Judas. So we shall be convicted as Christ speaks to our hearts. The fountains of the soul will be broken up. The mind will be energized, and, springing into activity and life, will break down every barrier that has caused disunion and alienation. Sins that have been committed will appear with more distinctness than ever before; for the Holy Spirit will bring them to our remembrance. The words of Christ, "If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them," will be clothed with new power.--Review and Herald, Nov. 4, 1902. {Ev 275.2}


Test of the Heart.--This ordinance of feet washing was made a religious service. . . . It was given as something to test and prove the loyalty of the children of God. When modern Israel observes the sacramental ordinance, this ceremony should precede the partaking of the emblems of the Lord's death. {Ev 275.3}


This ordinance was given for the benefit of Christ's disciples. And Christ meant all that He said when His lips uttered the words, "I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. . . . If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them." He designed by this to test the true state of the heart and mind of those who participated therein.--Manuscript 8, 1897. {Ev 275.4}

Obviously the statements in the Desire of Ages do NOT say of Judas that every "barrier that caused division and disunion" in the heart of Judas "was broken down". In fact Desire of Ages states that Judas "hardened his heart" against it. And it makes that statement in the very area that the Web site Marcia quotes - tells us to look for the exact opposite information.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

This is a fun game so far. :type::godisgood:

 

[targus]

Not any more than "behold I come quickly" makes you a contemporary with John the revelator.

in Christ,

Bob

Apples and jumbo jets.

No comparison at all.

So the explanation is...

Enoch should be Adam - typo.

Enoch should be Methuselah - typo.

And now "just before" is comparable to "I come quickly" ?

Is this how SDA's reconcile Ellen White's errors with Scripture?

Simply say, "Sorry, that's a typo"? :laugh::laugh::BangHead:

I am unconvinced and I doubt that you have convinced anyone else.

I will try to help you with your blinders by starting a new Ellen White thread addressing a different error.

 

[BobRyan]

And now "just before" is comparable to "I come quickly" ?

.

Indeed. You have "I come quickly" as the statement covering 2000 years.

You have "just before" as a statement covering less than 700 years at a time when men lived for almost 1000 years.

hmmm - not the silver bullet you were hoping for is it!

You seem to be majoring in minors at this point. I assumed from all the smoke and fury you announced for this - that you had something a bit more substantive.

Oh well - to each his own.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I will try to help you with your blinders by starting a new Ellen White thread

This thread is about as generic as it gets - you titled it "let's talk about Ellen White".

How in the world does it prevent you from saying whatever you wish?

I find your logic illusive - I must admit.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

This thread is about as generic as it gets - you titled it "let's talk about Ellen White".

How in the world does it prevent you from saying whatever you wish?

I find your logic illusive - I must admit.

in Christ,

Bob

Typical SDA tactic.

Putting words in the mouth of others.

Please show me where I have said the I been prevented from saying whatever I wish?

I am starting an new thread so that my questions to you about specific Ellen White error is not lost in the ponderous cut and paste - multi color - multi font - bolded - italicized - underlined claptrap that you want to use to obscure the discussion that I wish to have.

So your explanation to date on this particular error is "typo".

When was this typo discovered?

Can you document it?

How do you know that these are typo's and not errors?

Did Ellen White correct them?

Did she make statements declaring them as typo's?

Can you prove any of it?

Or did you simply accept the SDA "explanation" that they are "typo's"?

 

[BobRyan]

your whining takes the form of "I don't read so I don't know what I am talking about".

When you talk about the preflood world of Adam - Noah and make wild claims to having actually read what Ellen White wrote on that preflood time period -- you are claiming to have read the BOOK "Patriarchs and Prophets" (at the very least) where we find over 100 pages talking about the saints of the preflood world that you imagine you have a leg to stand on.

More related preflood material is also presented in a number of other volumes - LOTS of text dealing with the life of Adam, and Enoch and Noah. None of it saying "God showed me that Adam, Enoch and Noah were all contemporaries". ALL of it affirming the fact that Enoch lives only 300 years on earth and that Enoch's son lives for almost 1000 years and that at the year of the death of Methuselah - the flood takes place.

And THIS is where you think you have a case about Enoch, Adam and Noah being contemporary??

Hello!

There is a reason that no SDA believes the little story you tell -- based on two editorial typos found in various news style publications over decades of time.

(Just stating the obvious here - but since you seem to enjoy that. My aim is to please.)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

your whining takes the form of "I don't read so I don't know what I am talking about".

When you talk about the preflood world of Adam - Noah and make wild claims to having actually read what Ellen White wrote on that preflood time period -- you are claiming to have read the BOOK "Patriarchs and Prophets" (at the very least) where we find over 100 pages talking about the saints of the preflood world that you imagine you have a leg to stand on.

Like a said - typical SDA tactic.

Where did I ever make the claim to have read her book?

Having been made aware of her error - which you now want to pass of as "typo's" - why would I ever care to read her entire book?

More related preflood material is also presented in a number of other volumes - LOTS of text dealing with the life of Adam, and Enoch and Noah. None of it saying "God showed me that Adam, Enoch and Noah were all contemporaries". ALL of it affirming the fact that Enoch lives only 300 years on earth and that Enoch's son lives for almost 1000 years and that at the year of the death of Methuselah - the flood takes place.

I don't need to read your false prophet's books to know how long Enoch lived.

I have the Bible.

Why isn't the Bible enough for SDA's?

And THIS is where you think you have a case about Enoch, Adam and Noah being contemporary??

Hello!

Uhhhh... HELLO!! yourself.

It is not I but your false prophet that thinks that Enoch and Noah were contemporaries.

SHE WROTE IT !!!

BTW - you are the one saying ADAM.

She said ENOCH.

Let's stick with what she ACTUALLY WROTE instead of "making up" a supposed typo.

There is a reason that no SDA believes the little story you tell -- based on two editorial typos found in various news style publications over decades of time.

And who published those "news style publications"?

Hint - three letters S, D, and A.

Just stating the obvious here - but since you seem to enjoy that. My aim is to please. ( like that line so I repeated it for your benefit.)


So then please - tell me when these particular "typo's" where discovered and when did Ellen White or anyone else print a correction.

Ellen White's writings are "on par" with Scripture for SDA's so it would seem to me that the "typo" argument would have been distributed long ago.

And no - it is not necessary for me to read volumes and volumes of Ellen White's writing to discuss a particular error.

The error speaks for itself.

One error is enough to prove that she is a false prophet.

 

[BobRyan]

Ellen White died July 16 1915. She is the most translated American female author in all of American history.

She has not been writing at all since then. :smilewinkgrin:

God showed her in vision and number of amazing things - including the war in heaven, the creation of the world, the flood, the life of Christ, the tribulation, the second coming, the millennium, the new Jerusalem, the lake of fire - second death... etc.

She was also shown a number of health and education related subjects related to not smoking, vegeterian diet, the importance of fresh air, water, exercise and various medical treatments for common diseases of her day.

Are you saying she was given a revelation about these subjects?

Yes - she claims to have had inspired visions and dreams on all of those topics. In a number of cases those visions took place in a public meetings where there were doctors present.

At those times she would cease to breathe - sometimes for more than an hour.

In another example while in vision she stood up - held large family Bible over her head and pointing to scripture after scripture - quoted texts specific to a particular subject that was being debated by those attending. When she came out of vision - the vision itself was on an entirely different topic.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

Yes - she claims to have had inspired visions and dreams on all of those topics. In a number of cases those visions took place in a public meetings where there were doctors present.

At those times she would cease to breathe - sometimes for more than an hour.

In another example while in vision she stood up - held large family Bible over her head and pointing to scripture after scripture - quoted texts specific to a particular subject that was being debated by those attending. When she came out of vision - the vision itself was on an entirely different topic.

in Christ,

Bob

Dude, you really did drink the kool-aid didn't you?

 

[Marcia]

Are you saying she was given a revelation about these subjects?

Yes, that is what the SDA believes. White is treated as an authoritative source, like the bible. SDA people will deny this but it is how their church officially views White.

White also said that those who worship on Sunday will have the "mark of the Beast" when Jesus returns. Iow, if you are worshiping on Sunday when Jesus comes back, that's bad news for you!

There is also the matter of the Investigative Judgment. After Jesus did not return as predicted by Wm Miller in 1844, they came up with an explanation: this is the year that Jesus entered the heavenly sanctuary to "investigate" believers to see if they merit salvation. White went along with this and endorsed it. This is a centerpiece of SDA theology.

I recommend the website I posted before and this one:
http://www.watchman.org/profile/sdapro.htm

In one of her most revered works, Ellen White wrote that Sabbath observance would be the “line of distinction” in the “final test” that will separate God’s end-time people who “receive the seal of God” and are saved, from those who “receive the mark of the beast” (The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan, p. 605).



Describing a supposed vision direct from God, Ellen White wrote, “I saw that the Holy Sabbath is, and will be, the separating wall between the true Israel of God and unbelievers” (Early Writings, p. 33; emphasis added). She also wrote of some Adventists failing to understand that “Sabbath… observance was of sufficient importance to draw a line between the people of God and unbelievers” (Ibid., p. 85).



The Investigative Judgement: “In 1844…[Christ] entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgement which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin… It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgement vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom” (SDA’s Believe…, p. 312; emphasis added).



“…[O]ur High Priest enters the holy of holies [in 1844]…to perform the work of investigative judgement and to make an atonement for all who are shown to be entitled to its benefits… Every man’s work passes in review before God and is registered for faithfulness or unfaithfulness… The law of God is the standard by which the characters and the lives of men will be tested in the judgement… As the books of record are opened in the judgement, the lives of all those who have believed on Jesus come in review before God… Names are accepted, names rejected… as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life… <MORE>

http://www.watchman.org/profile/sdapro.htm

There is no assurance of salvation by grace alone.

 

[Marcia]

Also, see
http://www.cephasministry.com/7theday-cultic-doctrines-of-seventh-day-adventists.html

Another distinctive and controversial belief of the SDA church is the topic of the mark of the beast vs. the seal of God. It is well documented that Ellen G. White taught that the Sabbath will be the "great test of loyalty". Those who observe the false Sabbath (Sunday) will receive the mark of the beast. Those that keep the true Sabbath (Saturday) will receive the seal of God. <MORE>

While some consider the SDA cultic, other Christians consider it heterodox - a mixture of orthodoxy with aberrant teachings. It seems that a large part of those aberrant doctrines have come from Ellen White.

 

[targus]

Yes - she claims to have had inspired visions and dreams on all of those topics. In a number of cases those visions took place in a public meetings where there were doctors present.

At those times she would cease to breathe - sometimes for more than an hour.

In another example while in vision she stood up - held large family Bible over her head and pointing to scripture after scripture - quoted texts specific to a particular subject that was being debated by those attending. When she came out of vision - the vision itself was on an entirely different topic.

in Christ,

Bob

It must have been really hard to quote Scripture while not breathing for more than an hour. :laugh:

This is the most insane nonesense that I have ever seen on the BB. :laugh:

Did this happen before or after she astro-projected to Jupiter to vist the giant aliens. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, that is what the SDA believes. White is treated as an authoritative source, like the bible. SDA people will deny this but it is how their church officially views White.

1. You realize of course - "that makes no sense". For any denomination to flourish and grow they have to "teach" whatever doctrine they want to promote. "denying a doctrine" is not a "funny kinda way to promote it".

2. The actual "fact" is that Adventists accept the 1Cor 12 teaching on spiritual gifts that includes the gift of prophecy - as stated in scripture.

Prophecy is "by definition" a message from God. But the messages of all prophets are tested "sola scriptura" -- and when that prophet claims that the message is "via divine revelation through the gift of prophecy" then testing that message also tests whether the prophet is a true prophet or not.

Hence in 1 1Cor 14 - Paul says that prophecy "is a sign for believers not for unbelievers".

Rev 14 says that the saints at the end of time are those who "keep the commandments" (Interesting that Paul says "but what matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19)

Adventists (including Ellen White) do not teach that those who keep Sunday instead of honoring the 4th commandment today "have the Mark of the Beast".

However Adventists do predict that at some point in the future God will raise this issue at a world-wide level and that all will be lead to study the Bible on that subject.

If that future act of God never takes place -- then clearly the SDA prediction in that reguard will be proven wrong.

There is also the matter of the Investigative Judgment. After Jesus did not return as predicted by Wm Miller in 1844, they came up with an explanation: this is the year that Jesus entered the heavenly sanctuary to "investigate" believers to see if they merit salvation.

To be accurate - Adventist teaching is that at Jesus ascension into heaven He entered the heavenly sanctuary "once for all" and at that time He began His Ministry as our "High Priest" (Hebrews chapters 7 through 9 make that very obvious).

The Oct 22, 1844 event you mention above is about the close of the 2300 prophetic days of Daniel 8 where Christ enters the Most Holy Place of that Heavenly Sanctuary for the antitypical "Day of Atonement" phase of the sanctuary service.

Assurance of salvation is as always - the same as we see in Rom 8:16.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[targus]

I's still waiting to hear how she quoted Scripture while not breathing for an hour. :laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

Also, see
http://www.cephasministry.com/7theday-cultic-doctrines-of-seventh-day-adventists.html


While some consider the SDA cultic, other Christians consider it heterodox - a mixture of orthodoxy with aberrant teachings. It seems that a large part of those aberrant doctrines have come from Ellen White.

Here is the link to "actual" Adventist doctrine.
http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

The careful reader will note from the statements there that - no Adventist doctrine comes from Ellen White -

Arguably there is one exception to that statement.

In the 1880's Ellen White began publishing very explicit statements in favor of the doctrine of the Trinity. Until that time the Adventist denomination was heavily influenced by statements from James White strongly opposing the Trinity doctrine. As a result of Ellen White's endorsement of the Trinity in the 1880's and 1890's many Adventist took a closer look a the Bible support for the Trinity doctrine and then accepted that teaching. It now shows up in that list of doctrinal statements -- but even so, the statement uses no quote at all from Ellen White to make the case for the Trinity.

Other than that - nothing in that list has her fingerprint on it as source or author or "proving authority".

in Christ,

Bob