Let's talk about original sin!

[Chemnitz]

The age of accountability is a farse made up by people who are trying to give themselves cheap comfort while dealing with problems caused by faulty doctrines, i.e. decision theology. You will find nothing in Scripture concerning any thing like age of accountability. The only way anybody gets to heaven is through faith in Christ not some man made notion such as you have to be able to discern your sins in order to be guilty of them

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[tamborine lady]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
The age of accountability is a farse made up by people who are trying to give themselves cheap comfort while dealing with problems caused by faulty doctrines, i.e. decision theology. You will find nothing in Scripture concerning any thing like age of accountability. The only way anybody gets to heaven is through faith in Christ not some man made notion such as you have to be able to discern your sins in order to be guilty of them

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

I appreciate the fact that you stand by your convictions. However, the most sincere can be wrong sometimes.

Take a look at the following scripture and think about it. {Pray about it}.

Num 14:26 And the LORD spoke unto Moses and unto Aaron saying,
Num 14:27 How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.
Num 14:28 Say unto them, As truly as I live, saith the LORD, as ye have spoken in mine ears, so will I do to you:
Num 14:29 Your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, which have murmured against me,
Num 14:30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I swore to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
Num 14:31 But your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have despised.
Num 14:32 But as for you, your carcasses, they shall fall in this wilderness.
Num 14:33 And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcasses be wasted in the wilderness.
Num 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
Num 14:35 I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.

That is what I believe is the age of accountability. After the age of 20 God considers you a grownup. That is why God calls them "little ones" even though they are teenagers.

Now, I am sure that someone will jump in with "that is just for the Jews", but I say that whatever God said to that race, He said to all the rest of us.

Selah,

Tam

 

[Chemnitz]

Actually it completely ignores the fact that if a child over the age of eight days that was not circumcised was outside of the covenant and therefore outside of the promise of salvation. It ignores the fact that all including children of any age fall short of the glory of God and can not be brought into salvation outside of Christ.

I appreciate the fact that you stand by your convictions. However, the most sincere can be wrong sometimes.

Maybe you should examine your own convictions and see if your sentimentality is getting in the way of God's truth. Maybe then your eyes will be opened to the fact that all who are not in Christ face eternal hell. There are no exemptions based on something as arbitrary as age.

The children who were spared in the Numbers passage were spared for they were not of the generation that witnessed God's signs or had seen his glory. It has nothing to do with setting a supposed age of accountability. Besides why if there is an age of accountability do you waste church resources on everybody under the age of 20? Obviously if God doesn't hold them accountable you don't have to waste time trying to share Christ with them. You can wait until they are 20.

Age of accountability is only an excuse people came up with because they wanted an unbiblical doctrine that placed human reasoning and will power at the center of conversion.

 

[tamborine lady]

No question about it, the earlier we come to Christ the better, Then we don't have so much to repent of, and have less time to learn things that are not biblical.

However, it is too bad that you can't see the truth because you are too busy looking for the bad.

O.K. I know what Chemnitz thinks. Now, would anyone else care to join in??

Selah,

Tam

 

[Chemnitz]

I am not looking for the bad, only presenting a hard truth. Without Christ people go to hell and that includes little children. It is a sad thought but it is the truth.

You never answered my question, if people are not held accountable before age 20, why waste resources trying to reach them? Tell me why, you do not practice what you teach? Why do you waste your efforts on the under 20 crowd? Is it because you know in your heart that the age of accountability is a false hope spread by Satan? That is what it is, because Satan loves for people to believe they don't need Jesus.

 

[tamborine lady]

No question about it, the earlier we come to Christ the better, Then we don't have so much to repent of, and have less time to learn things that are not biblical.

I guess you didn't read it! That was my answer.

Jer 1-5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

So, I guess if Jeremiah had accidently died when he was born, or shortly after, he would have gone to hell, even though God had ordained him to be a Prophet?

Peace,

Tam

 

[atestring]

All have sinned and come short of the glory of god but sin is knowing to do right and not doing it.
Babies are innacent until they come into the knowledge of Sin.

The grace of God has appeared unto all men warning them to avoid ungodly lust.

 

[Chemnitz]

Tam, that doesn't prove anything except that it is possible for babies to be saved even before they leave the womb. It doesn't mean much of anything else for anybody out side of Jeremiah. This verse states that God sanctified Jeremiah and we know from other parts of the Bible that the way God chose to do this with all people is through faith in Jesus Christ. So we would have to assume that Jeremiah had recieved the gift of faith before he was born. At the same time where does it ever say babies aren't held to God standards?

 

[tamborine lady]

Chimnitz said:

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Tam, that doesn't prove anything except that it is possible for babies to be saved even before they leave the womb. It doesn't mean much of anything else for anybody out side of Jeremiah. This verse states that God sanctified Jeremiah and we know from other parts of the Bible that the way God chose to do this with all people is through faith in Jesus Christ. So we would have to assume that Jeremiah had recieved the gift of faith before he was born. At the same time where does it ever say babies aren't held to God standards?
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Tam says:

Your answer doesn't mean anything except that you are very rigid in your thinking. Too bad you are wrong.

Atestring is right, babies are innocent until they come to the knowledge of sin.

Peace,

Tam

 

[Chemnitz]

I am rigid because scripture is rigid on the subject. Or are you going to say that God is lying when He says the only way to the Father is through Christ? If you say babies do not need Jesus you are calling God a liar.

If I am wrong prove me wrong. Don't make idle claims without backing them up. Or is it you know you don't have any backing for your sentimental thinking.

Again you haven't answered my question. If people under 20 aren't held accountable why waste church resources on people under the age of 20?

 

[tamborine lady]

bump

 

[Chemnitz]

Still waiting...

 

[Chemnitz]

Still waiting or does your silence mean that you have come to the knowledge of Truth that no person regardless of age is saved outside of faith in Christ.

 

[tamborine lady]

No, my silence means that there is no more to say to you!

You are set in your ways and will not turn,

So no matter what else you say, I won't answer anymore.

The end,

Tam

 

[Chemnitz]

Tam, if you are going to say I am wrong you are going to have to prove it, which you haven't, you haven't even given a verse that gives the remotest evidence of a so called age of accountability or the idea of a seperate path of salvation based on age alone. I will take you're cutting and running as admitting to the shakiness of your position.

 

[Johnv]

I don't think that "age of accountability" is a hard fast rule, or a rock-solid scriptural teaching. Perhaps "state of accountability" is a bit more to the point.

That being said, we can do a bit of logical deduction:

If a person hears the Gospel, but rejects it, then he not saved. Therefore:

If a person hears the Gospel, and accepts it, then he is saved. Therefore:

If a person does not hear the Gospel, he does not have an opportunity to reject it. Therefore:

Therefore, a person who cannot reject the Gospel cannot be considered unsaved. However, that person can not also be considered to be saved. Therefore:

Since God desires that all be saved, and since not all have an opportunity to reject the Gospel, we must conclude that God must, in some way unknown or incomprehensible to us, reveal Himself to persons who are not saved, but have not heard the Gospel, and, in that revelation, provide them with an opportunity to accept of reject salvation.

Babies, the infirmed, the geographically isolated, the mentally incapacitated, are all potentially unable to accept or reject the Gospel, imo. Now, all that being said, is this biblically solid? Not in the least. Is it contrary to scripture? No. Is it a scripturally consistent possibility? Yes. Should it be taught as doctrine? Absolutely not.

 

[tamborine lady]

So, Johnv, should original sin be taught?

Tam

 

[Chemnitz]

Still waiting to find out why I am so wrong?

 

[Chemnitz]

Still waiting...

If you are going to claim I am wrong you need to PROVE IT! Not run and hide your head under the stand.

 

[Melanie]

Interesting debate, I understood that only de Catholics believed in original sin and therefore infant baptism.....because with original sin you cannot be saved....this has caused countless arguments (debates in RCC circles) and the belief of a state of natural happiness for unbaptised innocents (ie infants).