Let's Talk About the Holy Spirit

[Tom Butler]

I think all true believers are turned off by this type of usurping the role of the Holy Spirit in the worship service. Unfortunately, it happens way too often and many of the worship leaders are either told to do it directly or take it upon themselves to enter into this enterprise. Sad. :BangHead:

That's why I asked the question, because being "in the Spirit" means different things to different people.

And I'm also curious to know what the posters think is the practical result of being "filled" with the Spirit. What real difference does it make?

 

[Cutter]

That's why I asked the question, because being "in the Spirit" means different things to different people.

And I'm also curious to know what the posters think is the practical result of being "filled" with the Spirit. What real difference does it make?

Don't get me wrong, I love being in a service where people are singing,clapping and lifting up their hands in honor of the Lord, but as a Christian and that Spirit witness I spoke of earlier, you can tell when it is authentic and when is manufactured by the flesh. The feeling inside is indescribable, therefore it is difficult share it with someone else, unless they have experienced it themselves. Jesus said, "The kingdom of God is within you." He also said, "If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we (through The Holy Spirit) will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

I John 4 gives us some insight on how to know if others worship is genuine or not.

 

[Allan]

I'm going to hijack my own thread by asking, what does it mean to worship in the Spirit?

Does it mean, sat, worshiping under the control of the Spirit? And what does that mean?
Does it refer to some type of feeling (ecstatic, high as a kite, other) one has when he worships?

We throw that verse around, but what are we taking about when we quote it?

Acatully, this passage is not about the Holy Spirit, but is actaully about the type of worship.

Remember - God is a Spirit. This God's essense and thus qualifies the totality of the idea being presented. The whole being of God is spirit and therefore it signifies both the type (of God) and the whole being of the person.

- those who worship Him must worship Him in 's'pirit and truth.

Therefore the person who will worship God must do so with all his being (newly creation in God) and do so in or according to truth. In truth, contrasts that which is contrary to God.

But what is most important here is to understand what 'worship' means. This particular word is actually derived from the word 'dog' - meaning to lick or better kiss the hand of ones master. Plain English - devotion to the point of being absolutely consumed with your Master/God. It is reflective of a life or lifestyle and is why we will no more have to come to temple but that we have become the temple, we are the body of Christ and therefore we worship in life and deed, and not in confines of walls and religious practices.

 

[Tom Butler]

Therefore the person who will worship God must do so with all his being (newly creation in God) and do so in or according to truth. In truth, contrasts that which is contrary to God.

Thanks, Allan, now we're getting somewhere.

John 16:13 "When he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth."

So, would it be fair to say that if we are worshipping in the Spirit, he will guide us toward worshipping in truth? Or, to put it another way, can we truly worship in the truth without the Spirit?

I read once that worship, in part, is telling God the truth about himself. In order to properly worship, what we tell God about himself must be the truth, not something we've made up.

I'm not talking about some revelation from out of the blue, but about the Spirit's guiding us to understand, apply and obey the written word.

 

[Tom Butler]

The feeling inside is indescribable, therefore it is difficult share it with someone else, unless they have experienced it themselves.

I have been in services like that, where we felt strongly the Spirit's presence.

But is that all it is? A good feeling, even ecstasy? I'm not knocking the feeling, I'm just asking if that's the be-all and end-all, to feel good?

I sense that you don't think the goal is just to feel good, that there is more. Am I right?

 

[Cutter]

I sense that you don't think the goal is just to feel good, that there is more. Am I right?

You are right. Just as there is so much more in my relationship with my wife than the good feeling I have in my heart of being in love, i.e. she knows me better than anyone else, we have been through a lot of things together, the longer we are together the stronger our bond becomes, etc... there is also so much more in my relationship with Christ. The feel good is just one aspect of it.

 

[Iconoclast]

John 16:13 "When he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth."

This promise was given to the Apostles. They were guided into all truth.
The Spirit now quickens that word to us in His sanctifying work.JN 17:17
All our service and worship comes from the Spirit granting us the obediance of faith,expressed in good works that God has ordained that we walk in them.

 

[kyredneck]

This promise was given to the Apostles. They were guided into all truth.....

Amen. And thank you. All the promises of Jn 14, 15, & 16 concerning the Comforter were made to the Apostles.

 

[kyredneck]

Acatully, this passage is not about the Holy Spirit, but is actaully about the type of worship.

Remember - God is a Spirit. This God's essense and thus qualifies the totality of the idea being presented. The whole being of God is spirit and therefore it signifies both the type (of God) and the whole being of the person.

- those who worship Him must worship Him in 's'pirit and truth.

Therefore the person who will worship God must do so with all his being (newly creation in God) and do so in or according to truth. In truth, contrasts that which is contrary to God.

But what is most important here is to understand what 'worship' means. This particular word is actually derived from the word 'dog' - meaning to lick or better kiss the hand of ones master. Plain English - devotion to the point of being absolutely consumed with your Master/God. It is reflective of a life or lifestyle and is why we will no more have to come to temple but that we have become the temple, we are the body of Christ and therefore we worship in life and deed, and not in confines of walls and religious practices.

Amen. And thank you.

Consider the text of the passage. Take note of the contrast that is made of WHERE this worship occurs, NOT in Jerusalem, but in the Spirit. Also take note of WHEN this Spirit worship came about: 'and now is'. Christ was revealing something that had always been, not implementing something new. God had NEVER taken any pleasure in sacrifices and offerings, the child of the heavenly Zion had always worshiped in Spirit and in truth:

21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father.
22 Ye worship that which ye know not: we worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews.
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth. Jn4

 

[Dr. Walter]

There is a drastic need to better understand the Holy Spirit's role in the life of the individual believer in contrast to the life of the institutional church as opposed to the apostolic office.

We ought to "walk" and "sing" and "preach" and "pray" and everything else we think and do "in the Spirit" (under the control of the Spirit) as the only other alternative is to "walk" and "sing" and "preach" and "pray" and everything else we think and do "in the flesh."

In 1 Cor. 3:9,16 we have Paul using the plural pronoun "ye" excluding himself from being part of the "building" and "temple" of God at Corinth. The plural pronoun "ye" with the singular nouns "building" and "temple" (husbandry) metaphorically described the church at Corinth. In 1 Cor. 6:19 we have the same metaphor "temple" applied to the individual believer at Corinth. There is an institutional unity that is metaphorically addressed and described separately from the individual member at Corinth. In both cases Paul exlcudes himself ("we" "us") from these metaphorical applications at Corinth.

I personally believe that Isaiah 8:16-18 is the prophetic completion of the Biblical canon through the apostles and those directly under their leadership. John 14-17 addressed to the apostles has reference to this prophecy and its fulfillment in the promise that the Holy Spirit would bring to remembrance all things necessary for them to fulfill that prediction and lead them into all truth as the consequence. The apostles were very aware they were fulfilling this prophecy (1 Jn. 4:5-6; 2 Pet. 3:15-17; 1 Thes. 2:13; 2 Thes. 2:15; Rev. 1:3, 22:18-19).

I think the promise of the Father in John 14-16 is a multi-facet promise that ultimately describes a dispensational change rather than any kind of individual soteriological change.

 

[Tom Butler]

Thank you, Dr. Walter, and welcome to the board.

You defined being "in the Spirit" as being under the control of the Spirit. I tend to agree, but I have some further questions.

1. How do we know we are under control of the Spirit? How does being "in the Spirit manifest itself?

2. How do we get "in the Spirit?" Is it simultaneous with our worship, or does it produce worship, or is it a result of worship?

3. If one is under the control of the Spirit, can he unilaterally "come out" of the Spirit, or take himself out from under the Spirit's control? Or, conversely, place himself under the Spirit's control?

4. Should be be "in the Spirit" at all times, or is such a state mainly associated with worship?

 

[Dr. Walter]

Thank you, Dr. Walter, and welcome to the board.

You defined being "in the Spirit" as being under the control of the Spirit. I tend to agree, but I have some further questions.

1. How do we know we are under control of the Spirit? How does being "in the Spirit manifest itself?

The manifest fruit of the Spirit is the evidence one is "in the Spirit"

2. How do we get "in the Spirit?" Is it simultaneous with our worship, or does it produce worship, or is it a result of worship?

It is the result of dying to self. If we are talking about personal worship (not public) then submission to the Spirit honors God and redeems the time

3. If one is under the control of the Spirit, can he unilaterally "come out" of the Spirit, or take himself out from under the Spirit's control? Or, conversely, place himself under the Spirit's control?

I believe that all we can do is confess we can do nothing without him and then yeild to His control as we step out by faith trusting him to work in us both to will and do His good pleasure. Just as with Peter we can be confessing Jesus as the Son of God one minute and the next rebuking Christ.

4. Should be be "in the Spirit" at all times, or is such a state mainly associated with worship?

We are told to "walk" and "live" in the Spirit and pray without ceasing - that is our responsibility but certainly not our ability. We are talking about persistance in self-denial. As we grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ I believe we grow in perservance in the Spirit but never perfect it in this life. I certainly don't know all the answers but I do know who has all the answers

 

[percho]

Sorry I haven't been on for a few days.

The gates of hell (hades the place of the dead) How did they get there?
They died (gate) The dead in Christ shall rise first. Is this the church?




Though he were dead, yet shall he live: (by resurrection)
And whosoever liveth (by resurrection) and believeth in me shall never die. (again) Does this sound familiar? Rev. 20:5,6

Does Paul not say the same? Oh death (gate) where is thy sting. Oh grave (hades) where is thy victory.

Sometime the commentators want to over do. IMO

 

[thegospelgeek]

Good stuff, many thanks to all of you. I was asked this very question over the weekend. I came to the BB to start a thread, searched before I did and found this.

Would you agree or disagree with this brief summary.

• Being in the Spirit is to be influenced by the Spirit.
• The Gift of the Spirit and indwelt by the Spirit is the ability to be in the Spirit at all times, even though we fail to allow his influence to guide us at times.
• Being filled by and Baptized (emersed) by/in the Spirit are one and the same.
• Filled by the Spirit is when we give over control completely to the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Good stuff, many thanks to all of you. I was asked this very question over the weekend. I came to the BB to start a thread, searched before I did and found this.

Would you agree or disagree with this brief summary.

• Being in the Spirit is to be influenced by the Spirit.
• The Gift of the Spirit and indwelt by the Spirit is the ability to be in the Spirit at all times, even though we fail to allow his influence to guide us at times.
• Being filled by and Baptized (emersed) by/in the Spirit are one and the same.
• Filled by the Spirit is when we give over control completely to the Holy Spirit.

The first and fourth are the same. The second I believe is wrong altogether. The third is also wrong in my opinion.

In Acts 2:38 the "gift of the Spirit" refers to the supernatural manifestations of the Spirit promised in Joel and observed by the 3000 in the apostles speaking in tongues. On the other hand to be indwelt by the Spirit is inseparable from being regenerated (Rom. 8:9).

The baptism in the Spirit has to do with the instituional house of God as the divine accreditation as seen in Exodus 40 and 1 Kings 8:3. The baptism in the Spirit has nothing to do with individual persons. Peter reminds the church at Jerusalem that what happened in the house of Corneilus (Acts 11:15-17) was not a continuing repetitive individual experience but the nearest reference point for the baptism in the Spirit was "at the beginning" or on the day of Pentecost. Whereas to be "filled" by the Holy Spirit is an individual experience and simply means to come under his directing influence.

 

[thegospelgeek]

The first and fourth are the same. The second I believe is wrong altogether. The third is also wrong in my opinion.

In Acts 2:38 the "gift of the Spirit" refers to the supernatural manifestations of the Spirit promised in Joel and observed by the 3000 in the apostles speaking in tongues. On the other hand to be indwelt by the Spirit is inseparable from being regenerated (Rom. 8:9).

The baptism in the Spirit has to do with the instituional house of God as the divine accreditation as seen in Exodus 40 and 1 Kings 8:3. The baptism in the Spirit has nothing to do with individual persons. Peter reminds the church at Jerusalem that what happened in the house of Corneilus (Acts 11:15-17) was not a continuing repetitive individual experience but the nearest reference point for the baptism in the Spirit was "at the beginning" or on the day of Pentecost. Whereas to be "filled" by the Holy Spirit is an individual experience and simply means to come under his directing influence.

So then, in your opinion being filled with the Holy Spirit and being in the Spirit are one and the same? Can one be influenced without being "filled"? I kinda get the impression that they distinguish different levels of influence. For example. I can be influenced by the HS when making a decision and am seeking God, but find filled more in the worship setting where God moves as described in earlier threads. The HS fills you to the point where you just worship.

Indwelt by the Spirit is that which recieve upon regeneration (agreed).

Do I understand your statement to mean that we do not experience "Baptism in the Spirit" today?

 

[Dr. Walter]

So then, in your opinion being filled with the Holy Spirit and being in the Spirit are one and the same? Can one be influenced without being "filled"? I kinda get the impression that they distinguish different levels of influence. For example. I can be influenced by the HS when making a decision and am seeking God, but find filled more in the worship setting where God moves as described in earlier threads. The HS fills you to the point where you just worship.

Indwelt by the Spirit is that which recieve upon regeneration (agreed).

Do I understand your statement to mean that we do not experience "Baptism in the Spirit" today?

Being filled with the Spirit and walking or living in the Spirit are one and the same. Being in the Spirit as opposed of being "in the flesh" (Rom. 8:8-9) is a distinction between being saved and lost. Being in the Spirit here is being indwelt by the Spirit and thus a claimed child of God (Rom. 8:9).

There is no difference between being "filled" with and/or "walking" or "living" in the Spirit of God. The analogy of being "filled" is taken directly from being intoxicated with alchohol (Eph. 5:18). When you are drunk all of your faculties are under the influence of the Holy Spirit so that you are brought into submission to the will of God (Eph. 5:20-21). Hence, Paul goes on to describe how a Spirit filled wife will submit to the will/authority of her husband (Eph. 5:22-25) and how a spirit filled parents and children will respond as well as spirit filled servants and masters (Eph. 6:1-8).

Yes, the baptism in the Spirit was an historical event which occurred once after the chosen builder of God's House had finished a new house of God. It happened once to the tabernacle in Exodus 40 after Moses finished it. It was immersed in the Shekinah glory. It happened once to the temple after Solomon finished it (1 Kings 7:3). The tabernacle and temple were divided into three apsects (outer court, holy and holy of holies). It happened to the church once to the Jewish membership (Acts 2:1) once to the half-Jew half Gentile (Acts 8:14-17) and once to the Gentile membership (Acts 11:16-17). After that point there is but "one baptism" (Eph. 4:5) for Christians until the end of the age (Mt. 28:19-20) and that is water baptism.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Being filled with the Spirit and walking or living in the Spirit are one and the same. Being in the Spirit as opposed of being "in the flesh" (Rom. 8:8-9) is a distinction between being saved and lost. Being in the Spirit here is being indwelt by the Spirit and thus a claimed child of God (Rom. 8:9).

There is no difference between being "filled" with and/or "walking" or "living" in the Spirit of God. The analogy of being "filled" is taken directly from being intoxicated with alchohol (Eph. 5:18). When you are drunk all of your faculties are under the influence of the Holy Spirit so that you are brought into submission to the will of God (Eph. 5:20-21). Hence, Paul goes on to describe how a Spirit filled wife will submit to the will/authority of her husband (Eph. 5:22-25) and how a spirit filled parents and children will respond as well as spirit filled servants and masters (Eph. 6:1-8).

Yes, the baptism in the Spirit was an historical event which occurred once after the chosen builder of God's House had finished a new house of God. It happened once to the tabernacle in Exodus 40 after Moses finished it. It was immersed in the Shekinah glory. It happened once to the temple after Solomon finished it (1 Kings 7:3). The tabernacle and temple were divided into three apsects (outer court, holy and holy of holies). It happened to the church once to the Jewish membership (Acts 2:1) once to the half-Jew half Gentile (Acts 8:14-17) and once to the Gentile membership (Acts 11:16-17). After that point there is but "one baptism" (Eph. 4:5) for Christians until the end of the age (Mt. 28:19-20) and that is water baptism.

Good stuff, I am just beginning a study in this area. That will give me a great deal of scripture to digest. I am curious to see if any other BBers will offer differing views. I noticed you are taking part on the thread about distingishing who a verse applies to. This point of view brings up a question that is pertinate there. So make sure you check it.

 

[Tom Butler]

Dr. Walter's comments on Ephesians 4:5 ("...one baptism...") are important. If there is only one baptism, then we have to determine which baptism it is. Is it baptism in the Spirit, or water baptism?

If it is baptism in the Spirit, then what are we doing still baptizing people in water? If it is water baptism, then we have to rethink our terms when referencing the work of the Holy Spirit in regeneration. We cannot call it Spirit baptism.

It has to be water baptism, since Jesus' Commission was that believers baptize in water. Believers cannot baptize other people in the Spirit, of course.

 

[thegospelgeek]

Being filled with the Spirit and walking or living in the Spirit are one and the same. Being in the Spirit as opposed of being "in the flesh" (Rom. 8:8-9) is a distinction between being saved and lost. Being in the Spirit here is being indwelt by the Spirit and thus a claimed child of God (Rom. 8:9).

There is no difference between being "filled" with and/or "walking" or "living" in the Spirit of God. The analogy of being "filled" is taken directly from being intoxicated with alchohol (Eph. 5:18). When you are drunk all of your faculties are under the influence of the Holy Spirit so that you are brought into submission to the will of God (Eph. 5:20-21). Hence, Paul goes on to describe how a Spirit filled wife will submit to the will/authority of her husband (Eph. 5:22-25) and how a spirit filled parents and children will respond as well as spirit filled servants and masters (Eph. 6:1-8).

Yes, the baptism in the Spirit was an historical event which occurred once after the chosen builder of God's House had finished a new house of God. It happened once to the tabernacle in Exodus 40 after Moses finished it. It was immersed in the Shekinah glory. It happened once to the temple after Solomon finished it (1 Kings 7:3). The tabernacle and temple were divided into three apsects (outer court, holy and holy of holies). It happened to the church once to the Jewish membership (Acts 2:1) once to the half-Jew half Gentile (Acts 8:14-17) and once to the Gentile membership (Acts 11:16-17). After that point there is but "one baptism" (Eph. 4:5) for Christians until the end of the age (Mt. 28:19-20) and that is water baptism.

Not sure I buy into your statement that the Skekinah Glory of the Lord in the OT and Baptism in the Spirit are one and the same. Ez. tells us in Ch37 that the Glory of the LORD will return to the temple. So you either left that out or expect it in the future. I see similarities as that both signify the prersence of God, however I do not think you can say they are the same without reservations.