Lewis on Atonement theories

[37818]

. . . Penal Substitution Theory focuses on wrath . . . .

Christ bears one's sins so the sinner who accepts that gift does not receive the death of both the body and soul. How is that not a penal substitution?

 

[JesusFan]

Wrong. Jesus is our sin bearer AND our example.

Philippians 2:5–11 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I meant example as in that Jesus was not just showing to us how to live, as he must die in our place in order to make impossible to have the wrath of God towards us propitiated and provide the basis by which the father can now justify us!

 

[JesusFan]

You did that to me. Without using any Scripture you determined my view was wrong.

The standard, however, is not human opinion but Scripture. God's Word ("what is written") is the test of doctrine.

The Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement fails that test.

per YOUR understanding, but not per the teachings of the scriptures and of godly men throughout church history, gifted with understanding

 

[JonC]

was Jesus judged by God the father exactly in the same fashion that he will judge all lost sinners die to them still having to bear their own sins?

Do you believe that God punished Jesus on the Cross instead of us?

Do you believe that God transferred our sins from us and laid them on Christ?

Do you believe that God condemned our sin in Christ so that He could forgive the wicked?

I ask because those are examples of teachings that are in opposition to what is written in the text of Scripture (you would have to believe Scripture means something OTHER THAN "what is written" to accept those things as true).

 

[JesusFan]

Christ bears one's sins so the sinner who accepts that gift does not receive the death of both the body and soul. How is that not a penal substitution?

Does not the bible teach that there is indeed the wrath of God stored up against all of the lost in judgement day?

 

[JonC]

per YOUR understanding, but not per the teachings of the scriptures and of godly men throughout church history, gifted with understanding

The problem is you are relying on the understanding of men rather than Scripture.

I do not have to understand why or how sins cannot be transferred from one to another on order to accept Scripture stating that they cannot.

I don't have to understand why or how God determined that it is evil to punish the just to acquit the guilty in order to accept that passages stating it is evil is true.

 

[JonC]

Does not the bible teach that there is indeed the wrath of God stored up against all of the lost in judgement day?

Yes. This is the Day of Judgment when the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

[JesusFan]

Do you believe that God punished Jesus on the Cross instead of us?

Do you believe that God transferred our sins from us and laid them on Christ?

Do you believe that God condemned our sin in Christ so that He could forgive the wicked?

I ask because those are examples of teachings that are in opposition to what is written in the text of Scripture (you would have to believe Scripture means something OTHER THAN "what is written" to accept those things as true).

Do you believe that God the father had imputed to Jesus all of our sins , and that due to him being our sin bearer and taking upon Himself the due penalty due to us as sinners, that the father can now impute the righteousness of Jesus towards us now?

 

[JesusFan]

The problem is you are relying on the understanding of men rather than Scripture.

I do not have to understand why or how sins cannot be transferred from one to another on order to accept Scripture stating that they cannot.

I don't have to understand why or how God determined that it is evil to punish the just to acquit the guilty in order to accept that passages stating it is evil is true.

You deny Pauline Imputation then of both sins and righteousness?

 

[JesusFan]

Yes. This is the Day of Judgment when the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

And that Jesus experienced that great and terrible judgement in our stead so that we do have to?

 

[JesusFan]

No, it is still grace.

Romans 6:6
knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
.

Galatians 2 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Colossians 2:20
If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,

2 Timothy 2:11
It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

Jesus died in our place, as our substitute is the plain teaching of the scriptures

 

[JonC]

Do you believe that God the father had imputed to Jesus all of our sins , and that due to him being our sin bearer and taking upon Himself the due penalty due to us as sinners, that the father can now impute the righteousness of Jesus towards us now?

No. I believe the Bible.

 

[JonC]

Jesus died in our place, as our substitute is the plain teaching of the scriptures

Lol.....much has been said by those who say (or in this case, post) something is the "plain teaching of Scripture", so I won't go there.

I will just say that I do not care about your (Mormons, SDA, JW, or anybody's) opinions regarding what the Bible teaches.

I care about what is written. What did God actually say? That's what is important.

And you cannot provide any passages supporting your faith because no passage exists.

 

[JesusFan]

Lol.....much has been said by those who say (or in this case, post) something is the "plain teaching of Scripture", so I won't go there.

I will just say that I do not care about your (Mormons, SDA, JW, or anybody's) opinions regarding what the Bible teaches.

I care about what is written. What did God actually say? That's what is important.

And you cannot provide any passages supporting your faith because no passage exists.

it does all throughout the bible, especially in the sacrificial system of the OT, but you reject that there is a real wrath of God towards sins, you reject substitution death, so you refuse to accept what is written!

 

[JesusFan]

No. I believe the Bible.

That is ALL what the bible states and teaches to us!

 

[JonC]

it does all throughout the bible, especially in the sacrificial system of the OT, but you reject that there is a real wrath of God towards sins, you reject substitution death, so you refuse to accept what is written!

You do not understand, therefore you are in no position to tell me what I accept or reject.

I do believe God's wrath is against wickedness. God's wrath will be poured out on the wicked.

But I do not accept your extra-biblical ideas (those things you say but cannot provide a single passage that says it).

 

[JonC]

That is ALL what the bible states and teaches to us!

Here are a couple of interesting facts:

1. You say I do not believe what Is written in the Bible BUT you cannot provide a single passage I do not believe.

2. You say your theory is written throughout all of Scripture BUT you cannot provide a single passage stating what you believe.

Do you not find that just a little odd?

 

[JesusFan]

Here are a couple of interesting facts:

1. You say I do not believe what Is written in the Bible BUT you cannot provide a single passage I do not believe.

2. You say your theory is written throughout all of Scripture BUT you cannot provide a single passage stating what you believe.

Do you not find that just a little odd?

What i find really odd is that all but you see that in the Isaiah 53 passage, Jesus is shown to be the suffering and substitution servant of Yahweh there!

 

[JonC]

What i find really odd is that all but you see that in the Isaiah 53 passage, Jesus is shown to be the suffering and substitution servant of Yahweh there!

You mean "most on this board" (as most Christians do not).

I do not find it odd at all. For most of my life I also read that into the text as something taught.

 

[Silverhair]

Then it would not be by grace. [Romans 11:6, Ephesians 2:8-9.]

If we are to be saved it is still by the grace of God. The condition is faith but only God can save.

Both the texts you reference say that we are saved by grace. Am I overlookig something in your argument.