Lewis & Tolkien

[timothy 1769]

every thought should be subject to christ, and i think it's not much of a stretch to say all of our time should as well. obviously we're going to fail somewhat in that, but do you not agree that's how it should be?

biblical support:

2Corinthians 10
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Deuteronomy 6:5
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by timothy 1769:
Tolkein and Lewis were both heretics

Wow! I didn't know God had appointed you as the keeper of the orthodoxy as to what and how your fellow Christians can write. Your posts on this thread are sounding very troglodyte-like.

 

[timothy 1769]

tolkien was roman catholic, therefore a heretic.

regarding c.s lewis -

Was C.S. Lewis a strong Bible believer? By no means. Christianity Today noted that he was "a man whose theology had decidedly unevangelical elements" (Ibid.). Lewis was turning to the Catholic Church before his death. He believed in prayers for the dead and purgatory and confessed his sins regularly to a priest. He received the Catholic sacrament of last rites on July 16, 1963 (C.S. Lewis: A Biography, pp. 198, 301). Lewis also rejected the doctrine of bodily resurrection (Biblical Discernment Ministries Letter, Sept.-Oct. 1996) and believed there is salvation in pagan religions. Lewis denied the total depravity of man and the substitutionary atonement of Christ. He believed in theistic evolution and rejected the Bible as the infallible Word of God. He denied the biblical doctrine of an eternal fiery hell, claiming, instead, that hell is a state of mind: "And every state of mind, left to itself, every shutting up of the creature within the dungeon of its own mind--is, in the end, Hell" (Lewis, The Great Divorce, p. 65). D. Martin Lloyd-Jones warned that C.S. Lewis had a defective view of salvation and was an opponent of the substitutionary and penal view of the atonement (Christianity Today, Dec. 20, 1963). In a letter to the editor of Christianity Today, Feb. 28, 1964, Dr. W. Wesley Shrader, First Baptist Church, Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, warned that "C.S. Lewis... would never embrace the (literal-infallible) view of the Bible" and "would accept no theory of the 'total depravity of man.'"

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/cslewisand.htm

c.s. lewis was a heretic, plain and simple.

would any of you want either of these guys teaching your children in sunday school?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by timothy 1769:
would any of you want either of these guys teaching your children in sunday school?

If I had children, yes. I would also invite them into my house.

 

[timothy 1769]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by timothy 1769:
would any of you want either of these guys teaching your children in sunday school?

If I had children, yes. I would also invite them into my house.

</font>[/QUOTE]why would you want your children learning that "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" is a lie? is salvation only to be found in the roman catholic church, or perhaps is available through pagan religions after all? these are not minor issues.

i would have invited them in too, and shared the gospel with them

 

[Karen]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
.......
Now, I've read a bit about C.S. Lewis and he was quite wishy washy and changed views many times.....

........rejection of the literal resurrection of the body are serious deviations from Biblical Christianity........ His contention that some pagans may "belong to Christ without knowing it" is a destructive heresy (Mere Christianity, pp. 176-177).......

Dear Diane,
The quotes you gave show more reading ABOUT C.S. Lewis from the works of someone who did not like him rather than reading his actual works.

Re: pagans - in context sounds a lot like the doctrine of Primitive Baptists on this board.
Re: the Resurrection. C.S. Lewis did, indeed, believe in the literal, bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
http://www.christasus.com/Letters/CSLWhatAreWeToMakeOfJesusChrist.htm

Karen

 

[Sularis]

Oh Lewis believed in a physical literal resurrection - he wrote about it several times

in the classic series Narnia - the children spend time on the Stone Table weeping over Aslan's death - Its been a while but I think I recall I think it was Peter inviting people(i think dwarves) to come and see that Aslan will come back to life

And Aslan does

Honestly Tolkien may or may not have been Christian - but its hard to let children read him without explanation - but then again - anything children read - should be "vetted" by you as parents

I can honestly say that my children will be allowed to read ANY book or magazine - as long as I am there to explain it to them!

There will of course be diversions to perhaps more appropriate books - Obviously continued reading of poor quality of books - would result in action, but to deny children miracles is a lowly, mean, and most evil thing that I can think of.

I had nightmares for weeks about Macbeth, but shakespeare still called out to me as a good writer; and no child of mine will be denied ANY of shakespeare's works

 

[Joshua Rhodes]

I have read and love all of Tolkien's "Middle-Earth" writings.

I have read all of the Chronicles of Narnia several times in my life. I just completed "The Great Divorce" and am about to start "Mere Christianity" by Lewis.

I consider both to be among the 5 greatest writers of the 20th Century. I'm proud to be a supporter of these men and their literature.

In His Grip,
joshua

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

Originally posted by timothy 1769:
c.s. lewis was a heretic, plain and simple.

would any of you want either of these guys teaching your children in sunday school?

I'm sorry, evidence supports that he was saved by praying to God to save him. That makes him a Christian.

I was under the impression that he was an Anglican or belonging to the Church of England which is protestant, not catholic.

In answer to your next question, No, because they are dead.

But to answer your question seriously, The only thing that deters me from having any saved Christian teach my children is if they aren't good with children. You would be surprised how many workers are in this ministry that really shouldn't be.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by timothy 1769:
tolkien was roman catholic, therefore a heretic.

This would be hilarious, if it weren't disturbing. Because he was a Roman Catholic, he was a heretic?

Notwithstanding the fact that your comments defy good taste and validity, you are most likely violating posting rules.

As for Lewis teaching my children: if I had any, I would have NO PROBLEMS WHATSOEVER with him teaching them. I would dare imagine that most of us would prefer The Chronicles of Narnia to contumely.

 

[timothy 1769]

tolkien was roman catholic, therefore a heretic.

This would be hilarious, if it weren't disturbing. Because he was a Roman Catholic, he was a heretic?

yes. praying to sinless mary, the queen of heaven, co-redeemer with christ isn't heresy? priests and pennance for the forgiveness of sins isn't heresy? believing christ to literally be present in the lord's supper isn't heresy? believing that salvation is only to be found in the catholic church isn't heresy?

As for Lewis teaching my children: if I had any, I would have NO PROBLEMS WHATSOEVER with him teaching them.

ok, lesson one - the old testament is a myth
lesson two - men aren't totally depraved, as the bible teaches, they're pretty good!
lesson three - there will be no physical resurrection, who cares what jesus says, i guess he didn't understand how hard it was
lesson four - men should be sure to confess their sins to a "priest"
and finally lesson five - salvation can be found in pagan religions, so write this in your bible: "zeus and i are the ways, the truths, and the lives... no man cometh unto the father but by anybody he choosesl"

 

[rsr]

I'm curious, Timothy. Have you actually read Lewis' writings that would substantiate your charges?

 

[Wisdom Seeker]

Completely side stepped my post that said that C.S. Lewis was not Catholic but belonged to the Church of England which is protestant. But of course if it had been acknowleged, the continueance of the whole "Catholics are heritics" rant would be rediculous.

Is there a website out there that will tell us poor Christians what is acceptable to read? I mean is there a web site out there that will tell us in depth what the denominational background is on every author and quote every word they ever said before or after their salvation? Is there a black list like there was in the Macarthy era that some of us can look at to know how to make up our minds on this subject?

Sorry, I was being sarcastic. But at some point we have to take responsibility for our own choices and not expect to convert everyone else to believe like us.

 

[dianetavegia]

I would like to clarify too that I have C.S. Lewis' books and we read the Chronicles of Narnia to our children but I am unsure of Lewis' salvation IF he did say certain things toward his death that have been atributed to him. (Things that show questions about heaven, hell, etc...) However, that is between Lewis and God.

BTW... My favorite was 'Screwtape Letters'.

Diane

 

[dianetavegia]

I've not read Letters to Malcolm but here's the remark about Lewis turning TOWARD Catholicism. This is a direct quote from his Biography which gives the page number in that book. Does anyone have the book?

In Letters to Malcolm (p. 107), Lewis indicates that shortly before his death he was turning toward the Catholic Church. Lewis termed himself "very Catholic" -- his prayers for the dead, belief in purgatory, and rejection of the literal resurrection of the body are serious deviations from Biblical Christianity (C.S. Lewis: A Biography, p. 234)

 

[rsr]

Would Lewis feel at home in a fundamental Baptist church? Not likely.

But I have read his writings in opposition to veneration of the saints and am satisfied he was Protestant -- much to the chagrin of Tolkien. I have also read his writings on purgatory and a second chance to believe, as well as other positions that seem foreign to American Baptists. (I warn that it is not fair to take a single line out of Lewis and try to build a theology around it; much of his writing was musing, wondering, examining belief. He didn't write proof texts.)

What he did was write powerfully and lucidly about the central tenets of the Christian faith.

'There is no halfway house and there is no parallel in other religions. If you had gone to Buddha and said 'Are you the son of Bramah?' he would have said 'My son, you are still in the veil of illusion'. If you had gone to Socrates and asked, 'Are you Zeus' he would have laughed at you. If you had gone to Mohammed and asked 'Are you Allah?' he would first have rent his clothes and then cut your head off. If you had asked Confucius 'Are you heaven?' I think he would probably have replied, 'Remarks which are not in accordance with nature are in bad taste.' The idea of a great moral teacher saying what Christ said is out of the question. In my opinion, the only person who can say that sort of thing is either God or a complete lunatic suffering from that form of delusion which undermines the whole mind of man. If you think you are a poached egg, when you are not looking for a piece of toast to suit you, you may be sane, but if you think you are God, there is no chance for you. We may note in passing that He was never regarded as a mere moral teacher. He did not produce that effect on any of the people who actually met Him. He produced mainly three effects — Hatred — Terror — Adoration. There was no trace of people expressing mild approval.'

-- "What Are We to Make of Jesus Christ?", 1950.

 

[DanielFive]

I haven't studied CS Lewis myself but I have a Christian friend (Baptist) who has addressed the students at both Harvard and Oxford Universities on the life and faith of CS Lewis.

Believe me, he was a Christian.

 

[Jim1999]

What Anglicans would feel at home in a baptist church? There is no question that CS Lewis was an evangelical Anglican, but nontheless an Anglican. Anglicans have a very deeply rooted faith and dedication to Jesus Christ. Some of the other trappings, so important to many baptists, are but trivial to them.

I think CS Lewis fits very well into this mould, like many Oxford professors of faith. For an apologetic of Christianity, one must read Mere Christianity by Lewis. That books says it all.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by timothy 1769:
yes. praying to sinless mary, the queen of heaven, co-redeemer with christ isn't heresy? priests and pennance for the forgiveness of sins isn't heresy? believing christ to literally be present in the lord's supper isn't heresy? believing that salvation is only to be found in the catholic church isn't heresy?

My, you certainly make your point well, utilizing Tolkien's own words to prove your charge. You have provided the indisputable proof that ALL Roman Catholics are incapable of either utilizing logic, or escaping the inevitable fate of a heretic.

ok, lesson one - the old testament is a myth lesson two - men aren't totally depraved, as the bible teaches, they're pretty good!
lesson three - there will be no physical resurrection, who cares what jesus says, i guess he didn't understand how hard it was
lesson four - men should be sure to confess their sins to a "priest"
and finally lesson five - salvation can be found in pagan religions, so write this in your bible: "zeus and i are the ways, the truths, and the lives... no man cometh unto the father but by anybody he choosesl"

This isn't even challenging....

Why don't you stop regurgitating the postulates of others and READ the book _Mere Christianity_ for yourself?

By the way, I followed your link. David Cloud et al don't like C.S. Lewis? Why doesn't that surprise me?

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
[QB] I've not read Letters to Malcolm but here's the remark about Lewis turning TOWARD Catholicism. This is a direct quote from his Biography which gives the page number in that book. Does anyone have the book?

Yes, I do; however, my page numbers do not match up with the one you cite. I will find it though.

I totally agree with you on _The Screwtape Letters_. This takes satire to an artform.....