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Lewis vs Christ

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Mark Osgatharp, Dec 11, 2005.

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  1. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    Paul,

    Jesus Christ said:

    "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine."

    Mr. Lewis is, therefore, wrong, because he said a man can belong to Christ without knowing it while Jesus He was known of His sheep.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
    #41 Mark Osgatharp, Dec 12, 2005
  2. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I do not take any man's words over those of my Lord and Savior, Christ Jesus.

    I would, however, rely on the words of C.S. Lewis over your words, Mark.
     
    #42 KenH, Dec 12, 2005
  3. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Gold Dragon, my question to you is somewhat off the main topic of the thread but in regard to your statement above. I've seen others make similar statements (in regard to soul liberty, but not necessarily on this thread), so they may wish to chime in as well.

    As far as what C. S. Lewis believed about these things I have no real knowledge. But assuming he could have believed them...

    You wrote, "since I'm a baptist who believes in Soul Liberty, I don't have a problem with Lewis believing them."

    In what sense do you mean you "don't have a problem" with them? I also don't have a problem with Lewis believing them in the sense that he must answer to God regardless of what you or I think. He was (or at least should have been) free to believe what he believed without coercion or persecution. OTOH, I have a problem with all of the above and even consider them heretical. I don't have a problem with his right to believe them nor my right to call them heretical.

    Thanks for your comments.
     
    #43 rlvaughn, Dec 12, 2005
  4. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Would ANY Baptist here consider THIS "salvation"?? [emphasis mine]

    [Mere Christianity p 64-65]
    New life is spread by bodily acts like baptism and Holy Communion?
    Salvation by sacraments?
    Bodily acts can give new life?
    Christian faith is unnecessary?

    Are those legitimate questions? YES. The very next paragraph in Mere Christianity states Lewis' conclusion:

     
    #44 Dr. Bob, Dec 12, 2005
  5. Bunyon

    Bunyon New Member

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    But Lewis was not a Baptist. So I grant him the right to have a different take on things than I do. I think highly of Luther, but what baptist would tolerate him in a congregation today, because in spite of all the light he brought he did not come completely out of the darkness of the middle age chruch. We don't have to make him a Baptist to enjoy his work in Narnia.
     
    #45 Bunyon, Dec 12, 2005
  6. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    But Bunyon, it's the BAPTISTS here who are claiming "salvation" both FOR Lewis and IN his teaching. His own words deny salvation by faith as every evangelical believes.

    He can be as unregenerate as the day is long and that does not mean he is not worth reading. I enjoy Mark Twain and know his professed "unbelief".
     
    #46 Dr. Bob, Dec 12, 2005
  7. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Did Lewis claim salvation for himself through faith in Christ, or apart from faith in Christ? One may claim that others might be saved apart from personal faith in Christ while holding personal faith in Christ.
     
    #47 whatever, Dec 12, 2005
  8. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    He claimed that a person is saved by baptism and eucharist. He decried "evangelicalism" and associated only with neo-catholic (anglican) and Roman catholic theology.

    It constantly amazes me that such a person has become the "Darling" of modern evangelicalism and many of its leaders.
     
    #48 Dr. Bob, Dec 12, 2005
  9. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    He claimed three "ordinary" methods - belief as well as baptism and communion. Even though he was wrong about two of them, if he still believed why wouldn't he still be saved, since salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone?
     
    #49 whatever, Dec 12, 2005
  10. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    Because by being wrong about "two of them" he proves he was wrong about the the other. It is authentic faith in the authentic Christ that saves, not bogus faith in a re-defined Christ through false baptism and the mass.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
    #50 Mark Osgatharp, Dec 12, 2005
  11. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Belief + works is not "saving faith".

    Christianity Today, December 20, 1963 (p. 27) "Dr. Lloyd-Jones told Christianity Today that because [C.S.] Lewis was essentially a philosopher, his view of salvation was defective. ... Lewis was an opponent of the substitutionary and penal theory of the Atonement."

    Christianity Today, February 28, 1964 (pp. 34-35) "C.S. Lewis ... would never embrace the (literal-infallible) view of the Bible. He would accept no theory of the "total depravity of man."

    FBF News Bulletin, Fundamental Baptist Fellowship, March 4, 1984) "He [Lewis] rejected the 'substitutionary theory' of the Atonement"
     
    #51 Dr. Bob, Dec 12, 2005
  12. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Bro. Mark,

    How much does one have to be correct about in order to be saved?
     
    #52 whatever, Dec 12, 2005
  13. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Christ, atonement, sin/depravity, repentance, faith would come to my mind . .

    Lewis was "defective" (read: catholic) is pretty much all of those. [​IMG]
     
    #53 Dr. Bob, Dec 12, 2005
  14. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Dr. Bob,

    Sorry, my typing can't keep up with yours.

    IMO, most professing believers that I know probably couldn't articulate a belief of the atonement. Most that I know would hold to infallibility of and literal interpretation of Scripture, but I don't know of any who would say that such a belief was required to be saved. Most that I know deny total depravity, but I don't know of any who would say that affirmation of total depravity is required for salvation. Do you really believe that a person who is wrong about these things must necessarily be lost?
     
    #54 whatever, Dec 12, 2005
  15. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Lewis was a philosopher AND theologian (have "Mere Christianity" at hand, obviously) so when he makes heretical statements, I assume HE knew more than john doe average churchman.

    Would not cut any slack to a "pro" who claimed catholicism and not evangelical faith - in his own words!
     
    #55 Dr. Bob, Dec 12, 2005
  16. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    So the "pro" has to be more correct than the "amateur" in order to be saved? I'd better quit reading then.
     
    #56 whatever, Dec 12, 2005
  17. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Com'on, bro. A theologian who WRITES about salvation (thru baptism, thru eucharist, NOT needing to know Jesus, etc) is already holding himself to open scrutiny.

    Cannot for the life of me imagine WHY anyone wants to make CS Lewis into something he was not!! He was an English/Roman Catholic, not an evangelical who believed the Gospel like we do.
     
    #57 Dr. Bob, Dec 12, 2005
  18. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    I'm not saying that we should not scrutinize what he wrote. I'm not saying that we should make him into something he was not. I am only asking, why should we should question his salvation because his views of the atonement and depravity and baptism and communion were wrong?
     
    #58 whatever, Dec 12, 2005
  19. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    </font>[/QUOTE]I have a big problem with this view. Considering the New Age God as Tash, believing as I did was sending me to eternal separation from God, something I realized as my eyes were opened to who Christ really was and my need for Him.

    How can service to Tash be considered service to God when God condemns worship of false gods throughout the bible? You won't find harsher denouncements from God in the OT than the worship of false gods.

    Logic makes this whole Tash business a contradition to the Bible.
     
    #59 Marcia, Dec 12, 2005
  20. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    He must be correct on how to be saved. That would seem rather self-evident, now wouldn't it?

    Mark Osgatharp
     
    #60 Mark Osgatharp, Dec 12, 2005
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