LGBT's Serving in YOUR church?

[righteousdude2]

I never said that you're worried about losing tax exempt status for "your" ministry.

But you seem to believe that your buddy is in a real dilemma...."even face losing tax exempt status"

And what I said is shame on you, your friend, and anyone here who thinks that's a real dilemma

No apology from me, sir. If you don't think he has a dilemma on his hands, my comment didn't apply to you. If you think he's got a tough choice, then shame on you.

It's that simple

Again you did not read my comments. I told him he was making a mistake, and I told you I do not have tax exempt status, so you tell me what that adds up to? Shame on you for being so quick to judge, and too proud to say yo're sorry. Apologizing is a requirement of God for us to do when we misjudge another.

He is not a friend. A fellow minister in the area, and I do not approve of his views, and like with you, I am not afraid to tell him he is wrong. See you in heaven, and you can apologize then :smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

 

[annsni]

Again, there is a Biblical process for dealing with someone making such a confession.

You've just given testimony in your previous post that your church doesn't have a problem with a guy living with his girlfriend still attending the church. Are you un-membering them too, for clarification?

Yes, we would.

However, I was speaking of allowing someone to become a member that is actively living in a sinful lifestyle and letting it be known. So a homosexual who is embracing that lifestyle would not be allowed to become a member but they would be more than welcomed to attend the service and events/ministries/classes we have. They would not be able to volunteer as a leader or be on a ministry team, however.

Should a person be found to be living in a sinful lifestyle (like a guy living with his girlfriend) and he is a member, he would be approached as per Matthew 18. My husband personally dealt with this with a man who went on the men's retreat with him. A group of them were talking about how long they had been married and it turns out this one man who was living with a woman and they had children was not married to her. "So when are we going to fix that, Joe?" he said. The man appreciated that he was not condemned but instead counseled and encouraged to correct this sin. The result was that he moved out for a few weeks until they could do the wedding and it served to be a great example of grace, mercy, repentance and restoration. But should the issue turn into anger and refusal to repent and change the situation, they would no longer be a member in good standing. Usually by this time, they are indignant and leave, unfortunately. From experience, we've had some who have left and shown that they were not willing to listen to Scripture and just do what they want - and in some cases, they have returned and realized that they were in rebellion and were then loved and counseled back to restoration with the Lord.

 

[matt wade]

He is not a friend. A fellow minister in the area, and I do not approve of his views, and like with you, I am not afraid to tell him he is wrong. See you in heaven, and you can apologize then :smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin::smilewinkgrin:

He's either a friend or not...what about your earlier comments?

"I heard from a friend in the ministry that there may be some big news breaking in the next few months as the ACLU and the LGBT group may be suing an evangelical church to force that church to let a gay person teach in the Sunday School program!"

"I told my friend a year ago, this would blow up in his face, but he said it was the way to go, and that this guy had no desire to do anything but attend a church that accepted him!"

 

[Zaac]

He's either a friend or not...what about your earlier comments?

"I heard from a friend in the ministry that there may be some big news breaking in the next few months as the ACLU and the LGBT group may be suing an evangelical church to force that church to let a gay person teach in the Sunday School program!"

"I told my friend a year ago, this would blow up in his face, but he said it was the way to go, and that this guy had no desire to do anything but attend a church that accepted him!"

:laugh: :laugh:

 

[Zaac]

Yes, we would.

However, I was speaking of allowing someone to become a member that is actively living in a sinful lifestyle and letting it be known. So a homosexual who is embracing that lifestyle would not be allowed to become a member but they would be more than welcomed to attend the service and events/ministries/classes we have. They would not be able to volunteer as a leader or be on a ministry team, however.

Okay. That is correct but I am assuming you are saying that you all do the same thing if during the counseling process you find out that the boyfriend and girlfriend share an address.

Should a person be found to be living in a sinful lifestyle (like a guy living with his girlfriend) and he is a member, he would be approached as per Matthew 18. My husband personally dealt with this with a man who went on the men's retreat with him. A group of them were talking about how long they had been married and it turns out this one man who was living with a woman and they had children was not married to her. "So when are we going to fix that, Joe?" he said. The man appreciated that he was not condemned but instead counseled and encouraged to correct this sin.

Oh my gosh. I swear I had that same thing happen with a guy we took on a retreat.

The result was that he moved out for a few weeks until they could do the wedding and it served to be a great example of grace, mercy, repentance and restoration.

Same thing. :applause:

But should the issue turn into anger and refusal to repent and change the situation, they would no longer be a member in good standing. Usually by this time, they are indignant and leave, unfortunately. From experience, we've had some who have left and shown that they were not willing to listen to Scripture and just do what they want - and in some cases, they have returned and realized that they were in rebellion and were then loved and counseled back to restoration with the Lord.

We've encountered that too. Frankly I wish the church was doing more of this with the young kids and sex. But so many churches act as though it's not going on and if the parents aren't doing anything, they don't.

 

[annsni]

Okay. That is correct but I am assuming you are saying that you all do the same thing if during the counseling process you find out that the boyfriend and girlfriend share an address.

Absolutely. It's a tough position but one that we must take because of what God calls us to be as a church. Yes, anyone is welcome to attend but know that we will hold you accountable and if you are a member, church discipline might just take place. We have even taken to church discipline for regular attenders who were not members - in some cases for safety reasons for the rest of the congregation. But nothing is done with a hard heart and without much prayer and discernment - and counseling with the person in question.

 

[Yeshua1]

Again, there is a Biblical process for dealing with someone making such a confession.

You've just given testimony in your previous post that your church doesn't have a problem with a guy living with his girlfriend still attending the church. Are you un-membering them too, for clarification?

A gay/Lesbian can sit in on our church services, and we will not go out of the way to focus on their sinful lifestyles/practices, but will preach Christ to them.

IF they want to become members though, need to be saved and show fruit of that, as in renouncing that as a sinful lifestyle, and agree with the Bible and God to foresake it!

After a time of "probation", they can be free to serve in mistry within the church, and the time period is 6 months for any new member to be allowed to teach!

 

[SaggyWoman]

A gay/Lesbian can sit in on our church services, and we will not go out of the way to focus on their sinful lifestyles/practices, but will preach Christ to them.

IF they want to become members though, need to be saved and show fruit of that, as in renouncing that as a sinful lifestyle, and agree with the Bible and God to foresake it!

After a time of "probation", they can be free to serve in mistry within the church, and the time period is 6 months for any new member to be allowed to teach!

Do you do this with the other sinners that attend your church?

 

[righteousdude2]

Do you do this with the other sinners that attend your church?

Not assuming to know Yeshua's reasoning, let me say this in response to your question. Because in our culture and society, there is a false teaching (universal in it approach) that you can be a born-again homo$exual, keep practicing this lifestyle (some require, they sign a celibate statement) and are made members of the church family!

With this error in teaching, it would be up to each pastor how they address this with those that come into the church and profess to be born-again homo$exuals. I would see no harm in making sure this person has renounced that lifestyle, understands that born-again means from all sin not just homo$exuality, and that they have left that part of their sin nature behind them and made a turn in the opposite direction and following Jesus!

It is up to the shepherd of each flock to make sure his sheep understand what it means to be born-again and following Jesus!

I do not like the term "born-again homo$exual." I do not go around telling people I am a born-again fornicator? Or born-again adultarer; Or born-again murderer.

I am clearly born-again, of the sin He died for, and the life and sin I was adhered to is now washed in the blood, and my old life is just that. An old life, that is never again to be revisited!

Again, because of the errors circulating within the gay community, it would be imperative that a pastor has some clarification on where this person stands and what they believe. I think this is no different from asking a person wanting to join the church, to share their testimony with me. And in a sense, that is all you would do with a born-again gay. Get their testimony and make sure they understand what they've been saved from, which is ALL sin, not just a lifestyle they once lived within.

 

[Jedi Knight]

​

Nice Righteousdude!

 

[Zaac]

Not assuming to know Yeshua's reasoning, let me say this in response to your question. Because in our culture and society, there is a false teaching (universal in it approach) that you can be a born-again homo$exual, keep practicing this lifestyle (some require, they sign a celibate statement) and are made members of the church family!

With this error in teaching, it would be up to each pastor how they address this with those that come into the church and profess to be born-again homo$exuals. I would see no harm in making sure this person has renounced that lifestyle, understands that born-again means from all sin not just homo$exuality, and that they have left that part of their sin nature behind them and made a turn in the opposite direction and following Jesus!

It is up to the shepherd of each flock to make sure his sheep understand what it means to be born-again and following Jesus!

I do not like the term "born-again homo$exual." I do not go around telling people I am a born-again fornicator? Or born-again adultarer; Or born-again murderer.

I am clearly born-again, of the sin He died for, and the life and sin I was adhered to is now washed in the blood, and my old life is just that. An old life, that is never again to be revisited!

Again, because of the errors circulating within the gay community, it would be imperative that a pastor has some clarification on where this person stands and what they believe. I think this is no different from asking a person wanting to join the church, to share their testimony with me. And in a sense, that is all you would do with a born-again gay. Get their testimony and make sure they understand what they've been saved from, which is ALL sin, not just a lifestyle they once lived within.

I believe SW is questioning what I have often asked. I don't think you'll get any qualms from anyone on the board about what is/is not sin. The question that SW seems to be posing and that I have posed often is "Are you RIGHTEOUSLY judging?"

If you are not applying the same standard for ALL unrepentant sinners, then what you're doing is sinful itself in the eyes of God.

IS the pastor addressing those mired in gluttony, lust, gossiping as you're saying for the homosexual?

You simply will NEVER point someone to Christ and repentance when you treat them unrighteously.

The church really needs to get past this man-mad (meant man made but man mad might be better :laugh: )system of good sinners and really bad sinners.

 

[JamesL]

I believe SW is questioning what I have often asked. I don't think you'll get any qualms from anyone on the board about what is/is not sin. The question that SW seems to be posing and that I have posed often is "Are you RIGHTEOUSLY judging?"

If you are not applying the same standard for ALL unrepentant sinners, then what you're doing is sinful itself in the eyes of God.

IS the pastor addressing those mired in gluttony, lust, gossiping as you're saying for the homosexual?

You simply will NEVER point someone to Christ and repentance when you treat them unrighteously.

The church really needs to get past this man-mad system of good sinners and really bad sinners.

Very good.

Also, the one sin which Jesus spoke most vehemently against was when a man thought himself to be righteous

 

[Jedi Knight]

I believe SW is questioning what I have often asked. I don't think you'll get any qualms from anyone on the board about what is/is not sin. The question that SW seems to be posing and that I have posed often is "Are you RIGHTEOUSLY judging?"

If you are not applying the same standard for ALL unrepentant sinners, then what you're doing is sinful itself in the eyes of God.

IS the pastor addressing those mired in gluttony, lust, gossiping as you're saying for the homosexual?

You simply will NEVER point someone to Christ and repentance when you treat them unrighteously.

The church really needs to get past this man-mad system of good sinners and really bad sinners.

You do not have a grasp for rightly dividing the word.

 

[righteousdude2]

You do not have a grasp for rightly dividing the word.

But he thinks he does, and that is scary! :type:

 

[annsni]

I believe SW is questioning what I have often asked. I don't think you'll get any qualms from anyone on the board about what is/is not sin. The question that SW seems to be posing and that I have posed often is "Are you RIGHTEOUSLY judging?"

If you are not applying the same standard for ALL unrepentant sinners, then what you're doing is sinful itself in the eyes of God.

IS the pastor addressing those mired in gluttony, lust, gossiping as you're saying for the homosexual?

You simply will NEVER point someone to Christ and repentance when you treat them unrighteously.

The church really needs to get past this man-mad (meant man made but man mad might be better :laugh: )system of good sinners and really bad sinners.

So unless one is perfectly righteous, they cannot call out sin?

 

[Zaac]

So unless one is perfectly righteous, they cannot call out sin?

No. One must be perfectly righteous when it comes to the sin being called out or one is caught in sin himself.

If you're pointing out that one sinner should not be able to serve because of his unrepentant sin, then naturally the righteous stance coming from you should be that NO sinner gets to serve because of his unrepentant sin.

It is unrighteous to treat people who are committing the same sin differently or to point the finger at them if you are committing the same sin.

 

[annsni]

No. One must be perfectly righteous when it comes to the sin being called out or one is caught in sin himself.

If you're pointing out that one sinner should not be able to serve because of his unrepentant sin, then naturally the righteous stance coming from you should be that NO sinner gets to serve because of his unrepentant sin.

It is unrighteous to treat people who are committing the same sin differently or to point the finger at them if you are committing the same sin.

This is our exact stance. Now, in some cases, we just are not aware of the sin. Do we know of the man that lusts all day long? No, we don't. We DO know of someone living with his girlfriend and so we address that but that which we don't know, we can't address. HOWEVER, we can teach strongly about what God has to say about how we should live as believers and encourage our staff and congregation to understand what is sin in their lives and to seek to control/overcome it. Of course if any staff member/volunteer comes to us with a sin that has overtaken them, we will work with them and counsel them - and remove them from their position for a time if necessary. It is happening right now in our church and I see great work happening in the life of one person in particular. This person will have a great testimony once they get to the other side of this!

 

[Yeshua1]

Do you do this with the other sinners that attend your church?

ALL of us are sinners attending any church though , correct?
And same policy would apply, as anyone is free to attend any service and listen, but to become membersm have to agree with Church statemenmt of faith, and more importantly, to agree with the Bible, and have a 6 month probationary period before can serve as teachers or staff members...

IF someone was living together, man and woman, would have to confess and repent of that sining to become members, same way a homosexual "couple" would have to do likewise!

 

[Yeshua1]

Not assuming to know Yeshua's reasoning, let me say this in response to your question. Because in our culture and society, there is a false teaching (universal in it approach) that you can be a born-again homo$exual, keep practicing this lifestyle (some require, they sign a celibate statement) and are made members of the church family!

With this error in teaching, it would be up to each pastor how they address this with those that come into the church and profess to be born-again homo$exuals. I would see no harm in making sure this person has renounced that lifestyle, understands that born-again means from all sin not just homo$exuality, and that they have left that part of their sin nature behind them and made a turn in the opposite direction and following Jesus!

It is up to the shepherd of each flock to make sure his sheep understand what it means to be born-again and following Jesus!

I do not like the term "born-again homo$exual." I do not go around telling people I am a born-again fornicator? Or born-again adultarer; Or born-again murderer.

I am clearly born-again, of the sin He died for, and the life and sin I was adhered to is now washed in the blood, and my old life is just that. An old life, that is never again to be revisited!

Again, because of the errors circulating within the gay community, it would be imperative that a pastor has some clarification on where this person stands and what they believe. I think this is no different from asking a person wanting to join the church, to share their testimony with me. And in a sense, that is all you would do with a born-again gay. Get their testimony and make sure they understand what they've been saved from, which is ALL sin, not just a lifestyle they once lived within.

We do not view Homosexual sins as being worse then hetrosexual sinning, but in either case, do expect those involves in realtionships not accepted by god as being legit to forsake them .... In the case of the Homosexual/Lesbian to cease from doing that, and in case of hetrosexuals, either get married or move apart!

 

[Yeshua1]

No. One must be perfectly righteous when it comes to the sin being called out or one is caught in sin himself.

If you're pointing out that one sinner should not be able to serve because of his unrepentant sin, then naturally the righteous stance coming from you should be that NO sinner gets to serve because of his unrepentant sin.

It is unrighteous to treat people who are committing the same sin differently or to point the finger at them if you are committing the same sin.

except that God Himself has declared to us that certain sins are worse to him then others, as they go against His created order, and violate the very image he created the institution of family for, to mirror the relationship between jesus and His church!