Liberal Christians and Islam

I am one of the seven, and I am going to try to give a response as to why I think that Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God.

I have always thought that the family relationship that exists among the various groups that are involved in this religious triangle suggests that they have the same God in common. However, their experiences of that God are different. This is true of many religions. I am particularly interested in Native American religion because of its concept of the place of humanity within the larger creation. I think we as Christians could learn a lot from them about humility in the way we use the creation that has been given to us for our use.

The idea of different experiences is also true on this forum. We all claim to worship the same God, but it is painfully obvious that we don't agree on many issues. Does that mean that some of us are worshiping a different god, or a false god? Not at all. The violence done by those claiming to be Muslim has been brought up more than once as evidence of the falseness of the religion. However, Muslims have no corner on violence. The history of Christendom is replete with violent actions performed in order to coerce dissenters to come back into the bosom of the church. Examples include the Anabaptists and the Puritans' treatment of Roger Williams.

The problem that I see here is that many people posting here seem to think that theological issues about the nature of God can be decided by debate and argument. That settles nothing. Also, I don't think that the name-calling and character assassination that I see all too often here is helping anyone develop a deeper understanding of God and what God is doing in the world. The real result of these is the erection of barriers between posters that can preclude any meaningful dialogue.

We learn by doing. We find out about God in the way that we treat other people, especially people in need. We also find out some things about ourselves. I think that that was the point of many of Jesus' teachings, but I will mention only one: Matthew 25.31-46. Notice that both groups were surprised by their respective rewards. Neither group was acting because they thought Christ was involved. One group met the needs of others only because those needs were worthy of being met. The other group couldn't be bothered to meet the needs of others. We encounter people with needs everyday, including on this forum. How we treat those we diagree with here says a lot about how secure we are in our own faith.

Finally, I need to raise a question that only Daisy can answer: Why did you sign on to all three options on the poll? (If someone else has raised this question, I apologize. I'm not sure that I have read all of the posts on this thread.)


Tim Reynolds

 

Timsings, thank you for your post. I appreciate your willingness to explain why you voted the way you did.

But I don't think you really backed up your view at all. The history of violence in a religion or how different people behave or their disagreements have nothing to do with how God has revealed himself. I fail to see how your comment about name calling and erecting barriers proves your point.

God revealed himself in his word and through Jesus Christ. That is how we know God and how we know who he is and what he is like. There are many attributes of God clearly given in scripture.

The god of Islam also has attributes and they are given in the Koran. He is capricious, aids and abets evil, is arbitrary, and does not have a son, is not love, nor does he guarantee any kind of salvation. The god of Islam was revealed to an illiterate man in a cave who was communing with a spirit that frightened him. He only went back because his wife told him to go back. The god of Islam does not match the God of the Bible.

I fail to see how any of your points support a position that the god of Islam is the God of the Bible.

 

I believe you're the only one who noticed that. I have a hard time with hard and fast answers because it all depends...

Yes, mostly for the same reasons you so eloquently stated, but with a stronger emphasis on historical-cultural tradition.

No, because Jews deny the Christian trinity and Christians the Abraham connection to Islam.

I don't know, because I don't.

 

There is no Abraham connection to Islam. The descendants of Hagar did become the Arabic people but Islam was not founded until hundreds of years after Christ. God has nothing to do with the false religion of Islam, which espouses a different God, a different Jesus, and a different worldview than the Bible.

 

The descendents of Hagar AND Abraham.

They think it is the same one.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

Historically, muslims point back to the God of certain personalities.

By character, the god of Islam very little resemblance to the God of the Bible.

 

Yes, the Muslims claim they come from Abraham, but Islam does not come from Abraham and was not founded by God. Islam is a false religion, no matter what followers of Islam believe and claim. Their claims are false.

IS 45.7 does not mean God created false religions!! Are you saying that? I hope not.

Look up the context of this verse and some commentaries on it - we've had threads on it before. Many versions say "calamity" for "darkness." In context, the text is saying that God is sovereign over all that happens and he also brings destruction as judgment.

The text does not support any view that claims Islam is from God, that the god of Islam is the God of the Bible, or that Muslims come from Abraham.

No one yet has demonstrated how the god of Islam is the same God as the God of the Bible. Not on this thread nor any other thread on the same topic. In fact, the more you compare them, the more different they are.

 

I wasn't trying to persuade anyone to convert to my opinion. My intent was simply to express an opinion. I don't think that it is possible for us to discern whether or not the God of Christianity and Judaism is the God of Islam. It is certainly not possible to settle the issue through debate and argument. It is also not a topic that I think much about, so, in some ways my posting comments on this forum is a violation of my own priorities.

I do want to mention one further point that continues to be an issue in our attempts to understand God. One of the points that has been made by several people here is the contrast between the God of the Bible and the God of the Quran on the issue of evil. There are several accounts in the OT that show God to be capricious (Cain and Abel) and at least allowing evil (Job). We do not understand the relation of God to evil. It is a continuing challenge to us because we cannot make sense out of it. It is cop-out to declare that God is in control, and then to blame evil on Satan. Is Satan outside of God's control which raises questions about that control? Or is Satan one of God's servants (as described in Job) which raises questions about God's responsibility?

I'm sure that all of these questions have been raised before, and I do not want to initiate a re-hashing of old stuff. I think Daisy said it best, "I don't know because I don't know." I suspect we'll find the answers one day, but not in this life.


Tim Reynolds

 

Well, I'm not thinking we can settle it through debate. I think it's already settled through the scripture.

God is never capricious. I am not sure why you say he is and I don't see the evidence for it. God is always good, just, merciful, loving, and has judgment on sin. What is capiricious about Cain and Abel? Whatever the debates may be re God and evil, God is not evil himself and does not endorse evil acts. Allowing what happened to Job was apparently a testing of Job and his faith did survive this. I hardly see how this compares with the acts of Allah in the Koran.

I don't think the answer is that we will find it one day. I think the attributes of Allah and the fruits of worshiping him, and where Islam came from speak loud and clear as to the fact that the god of Islam is a false god.

One simple question can answer this: Did the God of the Bible reveal himself in a cave to Mohammed, who then founded a false religion based upon that and produced a book that denies the diety and atonement of Christ?




I'm sure that all of these questions have been raised before, and I do not want to initiate a re-hashing of old stuff. I think Daisy said it best, "I don't know because I don't know." I suspect we'll find the answers one day, but not in this life.

 

I may not agree with you, Tim, but you are one heckuva good writer. I would love to have your command of English. Well done!

 

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I agree that belief in Christian scripture would lead to the conclusion that Islam is a false religion. I do think that Islam and Christianity to define God differently, but they both worship the God of Abraham. They both worship a single God that was the God of the Jews. They both read the Torah and the gospels, yet Christians and Muslims just interpret it differently. Muslims believe in a corruption of the injil which lead to the belief of Jesus as a diety.

What acts of Allah specifically are you referring to from the Qur'an?

Both religions are highly spiritual and both have yeilded good and evil actions; however Islam could not exist without God's allowance. God hardens whom he chooses to harden. The Lord directs our steps, Muhammad included. It is God's will that is done.

Did he do it? No, not from a Christian perspective, but did God allow Islam to be created and to spread? Yes.

 

From an agnostic point of view, that could appear to be a religious contradiction -- a loving God that allows erroneous religions. I expect that your studies have shown many such contradictions in all religious. You will find widely conflicting views of Christianity on this board, too -- even among those showing Baptist as their religion.

For Christians, however, God is much more than mankind can understand. Faith is the basis of Christianity. Infinite responses to a finite world.

I pray your studies offer you more than simpls opportunities to increase your knowledge. May you come to know God on your own.

 

Perhaps, who can say what the reason is though. It isn't automatically a contradiction.

Yes, it has shown many such points of interest. Such as the conflict between no free will yet still infinite punishment. It's interesting stuff. If my college offered it I would have majored in theology.

I've noticed.

I agree

Thank you.

 

I think that he has chosen it for them. After all, he hardens whom he wants to harden.

No, not a "good book" a false revelation from our viewpoint, but one allowed to exist for whatever reason.

ok.

 

Life itself is a continuous learning experience. Your joy is living at a time when the majority of the world's knowledge is available through the internet. Your sorrow is how much of it is worthless. Winnowing through is time consuming. But it will not be boring.

May God open your eyes to His Truth in your journey.