Lifeway Tract on Salvation--right or wrong?

[Pipedude]

Maybe it's a cultural thing--different strokes for different people. Sometimes (or centuries) it's appropriate, other times not.

Who in Mr. Dod's version of church history was getting the job done for all those centuries prior to the Great Awakening? Does (did) he recommend their methods?

Post-apostolic church history is a multi-edged sword. Who believed in eternal security before the Reformation? Who was the first one to interpret the water in John 3 as something other than baptism? Who taught congregationalism? Other than Tertullian (and that for suspect reasons), who opposed infant baptism?

I'm a fan of neither Finney nor of the altar call, but I cannot totally agree with the opinion that the altar call is a methodological heresy based on a theological heresy. Some of the greatest conversions happened just that way.

Obviously it could be abused.

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by gb93433:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by John of Japan:
Um, think about that for a minute. Don't you believe that any request of any kind to Jesus while He was on the earth was a prayer? I do. So for just one example, the thief on the cross prayed to Jesus at the time of his salvation saying, "Remember me."

A prayer is an imperative of entreaty. A whole lot different than a 1,2,3 pray after me and you are in heaven nonsense.

Some have actually prayed the prayer many times. Did they get saved many times too.

Jesus never prayed to his disciples when he told them, "Come follow me."

When people came to Jesus requesting what they needed to do to be saved, when did he ever tell them to pray a prayer? </font>[/QUOTE]I don't think you are understanding me. If you have read this whole thread you know that I do not believe that a prayer saves anyone. What I believe the Bible teaches is that a prayer can show faith.

When I deal with a soul about salvation I sometimes do not have them pray. When I do have them pray, I make sure they understand that it is not a prayer that saves, but the faith of the heart.

As for people coming to Jesus asking what to do to be saved, my very point is that the request for information in itself is a prayer. Then we have the pleas to Jesus to be saved, such as the "Remember me" of the thief on the cross or the humble tax collector who prayed, "God be merciful to me a sinner." Do you really think God said, "Nope, these guys don't have it right. They are praying for salvation. Can't save 'em!" Granted, the prayer must be what the sinner trusts in for salvation. But I think it very strange to say the lost sinner must never pray to the Lord asking for salvation.

The Apostle Peter did not take it that way on the day of Pentecost when he quoted Joel and said that "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Acts 2:21). It is perfectly all right to call upon God for salvation. The call itself does not save, but it is a prayer He will answer.

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by gb93433:

Jesus never prayed to his disciples when he told them, "Come follow me."

This has nothing to do with the subject at hand. We pray to God, not man, as we all know. Jesus is God, so when the disciples asked Him for things they were praying. The disciples were mere men, so no one on the BB thinks Jesus prayed to them.

As for myself, I see people praying to the souls of men all the time here in Japan because of their ancestor worship. I would be the last on the BB to say that Jesus requesting something from his disciples is prayer.

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by epistemaniac:
here is another perspective, one that seems worthy of consideration.... it is another "tract" albeit a longer one, and it's purpose is to debunk much of the evangelizing "techniques" of today's churches and their "altar calls" and for the "getting of a decision for Christ"... an excerpt from the tract says:

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />one may read thousands of pages of the history of the Christian Church without finding a single reference to the 'old-fashioned altar call' before the last century. Most Christians are surprised to learn that history before the time of Charles G. Finney (1792-1875) knows nothing of this type of 'invitation.' The practice of urging men and women to make a physical movement at the conclusion of a meeting was introduced by Mr. Finney in the second decade of the nineteenth century. Dr. Albert B. Dod, a professor of theology at Princeton Seminary at the time of Mr. Finney's ministry, pointed out the newness of the practice and showed that this method was without historical precedent. In his review of Finney's Lectures on Revival, Professor Dod stated that one will search the volumes of church history in vain for a single example of this practice before the 1820's, (7). Instead, history tells us that whenever the gospel was preached men were invited to Christ—not to decide at the end of a sermon whether or not to perform some physical action.

check out the rest of the tract at http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/etc/printer-friendly.asp?ID=509

what say ye?

blessings,
Ken </font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps this should be for a new thread, since it is a different subject than the OP?

 

[epistemaniac]

actually, it seemed to me to fit right in... it {the other tract) deals with the idea of decisional regeneration, saying the "sinner's prayer", signing a card, walking down an aisle etc

blessings,
Ken

 

[John of Japan]

Originally posted by epistemaniac:
actually, it seemed to me to fit right in... it {the other tract) deals with the idea of decisional regeneration, saying the "sinner's prayer", signing a card, walking down an aisle etc

blessings,
Ken

But the quote given from the tract is about the "altar call," which is not a tract thing.

 

[epistemaniac]

Originally posted by John of Japan:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by epistemaniac:
actually, it seemed to me to fit right in... it {the other tract) deals with the idea of decisional regeneration, saying the "sinner's prayer", signing a card, walking down an aisle etc

blessings,
Ken

But the quote given from the tract is about the "altar call," which is not a tract thing. </font>[/QUOTE]lol... the tract is named "Decisional Regeneration", thus it is not about altar calls alone, but about the whole modern phenomenon of "praying the sinners prayer", "walking the aisle" under emotional duress, psychological manipulation etc the article I am referring to says

We have an illustration of 'Decisional Regeneration' when a popular present-day preacher prescribes a counseling procedure. He directs 'Mr. Soul Winner' to ask an unconverted 'Mr. Blank' a series of questions. If 'Mr. Blank' says 'yes' to all the questions, he is asked to pray a prescribed prayer and is then pronounced saved, (3). For the most part this counseling results in an individual being 'regenerated' through a decision. This is essentially the same counseling method used in large evangelistic crusades across the world. These campaigns are like huge factories turning out as many as ten thousand 'decisions' in a week.

overall, I'd say that the article/tract deals fairly closely with the OP's subject....

blessings,
Ken