Light years

[humblethinker]

You're right. The main focus, especially when sharing the gospel with the lost, should be Christ and what He has done for us. That's why when witnessing we should avoid the rabbit trails of evolution, creation and homosexuality and instead focus on the law that condemns us and the cross and resurrection that redeems us.

But I don't think there is anything wrong with a friendly debate among believers regarding these issues. After all, we can't all be right

Agreed. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[InTheLight]

That's specifically talking about the death of Christ which was good for us because it accomplishes our reconciliation. But God does not look on death in general as good.

Can you cite scripture?

 

[InTheLight]

I have no experience whatsoever with a perfect creation.

Pedantic mode: God's creation was called "very good", not "perfect."

 

[humblethinker]

Death

Perhaps death existed prior to man's sin due to sin actually existing prior to man's sin? Are we to expect that Satan's sin had no affects on the universe?

 

[RLBosley]

Can you cite scripture?

Romans 6:23 "...the wages of sin is death..." - God hates sin, and the wages (fruit in Romans 7:5) of sin is death, thus it follows that God hates death.

1 Cor 15:26 "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.." - Death is an enemy of God and man

2 Tim 1:10 "...our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death..."
- Christ has abolished death. Why would God abolish something that was good?

Pedantic mode: God's creation was called "very good", not "perfect."

True. But God is perfect in every way. It's reasonable to say that He, as the supreme perfect being, would not call anything less than perfect "good." After all that's why we need a savior, we are not perfect, we are not good.

 

[RLBosley]

Perhaps death existed prior to man's sin due to sin actually existing prior to man's sin? Are we to expect that Satan's sin had no affects on the universe?

Possible. But then how could the sin of angelic beings who are not the normal inhabitants of this world (universe, plane of existence, w/e you want to call it) actually affect us? Directly I mean. Obviously it affected us since Satan was able to tempt Adam and thus created this mess we live in now.

And again Romans 5 specifically says it was by man's sin that death spread

 

[humblethinker]

Possible. But then how could the sin of angelic beings who are not the normal inhabitants of this world (universe, plane of existence, w/e you want to call it) actually affect us? Directly I mean. Obviously it affected us since Satan was able to tempt Adam and thus created this mess we live in now.

And again Romans 5 specifically says it was by man's sin that death spread

As you showed above, Satan can affect things in this universe. He is in this universe, as in, he is not 'outside' this universe, you agree?

No one's disagreeing with your statement that man's sin spread death.

 

[RLBosley]

As you showed above, Satan can affect things in this universe. He is in this universe, as in, he is not 'outside' this universe, you agree?

No one's disagreeing with your statement that man's sin spread death.

I guess what I'm trying to say is how could the sin of Satan directly affect us since there is such a substantial difference between humans (natural) and angels (Supernatural)?

I think that when it comes to angels (demonic included) there is a lot of unknown. While yes Satan is present here in that he tempts and Peter said our adversary is "walking about" he also has direct access to God's throne for now so in someways he is here, but he is also in another plane/dimension. I'm not sure of what word would appropriately describe it. Am I making any sense?

 

[quantumfaith]

We were all taught in school that it takes 8 seconds (@ the speed of light) for sun rays to get to Earth.


Many stars are a million light years away. Thus when their light arrives at earth we are seeing something that started a million years ago.

How does this coincide with a young (6 K years) Earth?

Salty, actually, it takes approximately 8 Minutes for photons to travel from our sun to earth.

 

[quantumfaith]

http://astrosociety.org/edu/publications/tnl/56/ancient3.html

 

[quantumfaith]

Revmitchell, this is an interesting use of language. I take it that it's from the link you provided?

In my view, the conversation to be had is between theists: Theistic Evolutionists, Old Earth Creationists and Young Earth Creationists. The problem I see for YECs is that they too often make the "Godless evolution" their windmill and tilt at it with all of their conviction and gusto. Take, for example, the statement above. They seem to take 'critics of creation' to surely and obviously mean a young earth creation. The debate/conversation to have is one that should be faithful to intellectual integrity and they should have this conversation with believers who do not hold to YEC.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Salty]

Salty, actually, it takes approximately 8 Minutes for photons to travel from our sun to earth.

Must be something wrong with my computer - I meant minutes.....:BangHead:

 

[quantumfaith]

Must be something wrong with my computer - I meant minutes.....:BangHead:

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

It is my job to "do the math".

 

[saturneptune]

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Excellent answer, let God be God.

 

[saturneptune]

Salty,
I understand the problem, if the universe is 6000 years old, how can a star one million light years away emit light. Very good mystery. Maybe some kind of bending of the space time continuum??? I do not know, but it is interesting to ponder. Of course, the old earth theory would solve that problem. Interesting thread. I have no answers but faith.

 

[Iconoclast]

Excellent answer, let God be God.

Sometimes i have watched the science based shows speaking of string theory and , this ,that and the other.
I enjoy the programs and how much of God's creation he allows them to discover. Usually there is some ungodly speculations ,that I keep in check with this verse offered in Hebrews.
If God has determined to keep hidden these elements, no scientist will ever know what the exact fabric of the universe is......God is indeed God.

I have ideas about it , that i cannot scripturally support.

When the Apostles were in a closed room ,and them Jesus appears in their midst bodily, or angelic beings appear in the form of a man...I am not sure how science gives an account of the Supernatural element of OUR GREAT GOD.

When they [scientists] speculate on these things and look at string theory for answers....it just seems obvious to me that the questions God asked JOB demonstrate to man that His ways are much higher than our ways:
Job 38

King James Version (KJV)

38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?

18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

Salty.....The OP seems to assume an ....evolutionary idea....the big bang theory...rather than creation will all the parts in place.
In other words....why start out with the biblical account of creation, then go to secular science and adopt unbiblical assumptions?

 

[Revmitchell]

Revmitchell, this is an interesting use of language. I take it that it's from the link you provided?

In my view, the conversation to be had is between theists: Theistic Evolutionists, Old Earth Creationists and Young Earth Creationists. The problem I see for YECs is that they too often make the "Godless evolution" their windmill and tilt at it with all of their conviction and gusto. Take, for example, the statement above. They seem to take 'critics of creation' to surely and obviously mean a young earth creation. The debate/conversation to have is one that should be faithful to intellectual integrity and they should have this conversation with believers who do not hold to YEC.

If you had actually read the link you would not have said any of this.

 

[saturneptune]

Sometimes i have watched the science based shows speaking of string theory and , this ,that and the other.
I enjoy the programs and how much of God's creation he allows them to discover. Usually there is some ungodly speculations ,that I keep in check with this verse offered in Hebrews.
If God has determined to keep hidden these elements, no scientist will ever know what the exact fabric of the universe is......God is indeed God.

I have ideas about it , that i cannot scripturally support.

When the Apostles were in a closed room ,and them Jesus appears in their midst bodily, or angelic beings appear in the form of a man...I am not sure how science gives an account of the Supernatural element of OUR GREAT GOD.

When they [scientists] speculate on these things and look at string theory for answers....it just seems obvious to me that the questions God asked JOB demonstrate to man that His ways are much higher than our ways:
Job 38

King James Version (KJV)

38 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;

7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

8 Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?

9 When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

10 And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,

11 And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?

12 Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;

13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?

14 It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

15 And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.

16 Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?

17 Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?

18 Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.

Also, I am sure you have seen the explanations for the Star of Bethlehem. One is a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn. Another is a comet. My guess is that God placed a supernatural star for its intended purpose. We always try to analyze some of God's miracles, usually ones that we think we have an answer for. However, I have yet to see an explanation for the Ressurection, the Creation, or life itself.

 

[Iconoclast]

Also, I am sure you have seen the explanations for the Star of Bethlehem. One is a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn. Another is a comet. My guess is that God placed a supernatural star for its intended purpose. We always try to analyze some of God's miracles, usually ones that we think we have an answer for. However, I have yet to see an explanation for the Ressurection, the Creation, or life itself.

There can be no scientific explanation for How God had the sun stand still:wavey:

 

[OldRegular]

The speed at which the heavenly bodies would have to be traveling from 6,000 years ago to now in order to get the incredible distances separating them is unthinkable.



Yet, the speed of light is a constant for as long as we've been measuring it. Interesting that YECers complain that the Big Bang theory is invalid, as is evolution because there were no observers to see it yet are willing to concede that the speed of light has changed in order for their theories to fit, even though there has been no direct observation of this.

So you are now an expert on cosmological physics and Einstein's work on relativity?