Limited Atonement insanity.

[Silverhair]

Both Rom 5 18 ; 1 Tim 4 10 is limited to the elect

You can keep saying that but the bible does not support your errant view. You are reading your philosophy into the text. Many have taken the time to point out your logical errors but you refuse to listen to anyone but yourself.

 

[Brightfame52]

You can keep saying that but the bible does not support your errant view. You are reading your philosophy into the text. Many have taken the time to point out your logical errors but you refuse to listen to anyone but yourself.

I will keep testifying to it since its the Truth:

Rom 5 18 ; 1 Tim 4 10 is limited to the elect

 

[kyredneck]

@Brightfame52

I 'lean' to Romans 5:18 meaning that the atonement removed Adam's curse from humankind and 'all men' are now born innocent, i.e., NOT BOUND FOR HELL FROM BIRTH, as many Calvinists believe. Thus 'the age of accountability', when 'all men' become guilty of their own accord (Romans 7:9), not Adam's.

Do you believe we're all born hell bound? At one time there was a 'cluster' of hardcore Calvinists on this board that believed that.

 

[kyredneck]

Lol, as much as you are a 'cherry-picker'. You cherry pick the first 'all men' in the passage to mean the whole human race, You cherry pick the second 'all men' to mean a select few.

18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men [the human race] to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men [the elect few] to justification of life.

Again the all in Rom 5 18 is restated in Vs 19 as the many, and the many has the definite article in Vs 19, a specific group, not all without exception. Besides do you believe Justification of life in Vs 18 resulted for all without exception ? If you do thats universalism another false doctrine.

Do infants that die in the 'first group of all men' go to hell? Some of those hardcore Calvinists insisted that they did. They made no room for an age of accountability other than what may have been included in one of their Confessions, (with no scriptural support).

Do you hold to an 'age of accountability'? If so, how do you support it with scripture?

 

[Silverhair]

I will keep testifying to it since its the Truth:

Rom 5 18 ; 1 Tim 4 10 is limited to the elect

Your truth not the biblical truth. You are reading into the text what you need to find to support your philosophy. It is not the bible you believe but yourself.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Who is the Saviour of all men - This must be understood as denoting that he is the Saviour of all people in some sense which differs from what is immediately affirmed - “especially of those that believe.”
It cannot mean that he brings all people to heaven, “especially” those who believe - for this would be nonsense....
Does it mean that he saves others “without” believing? But this would be contrary to the uniform doctrine of the Scriptures; see Mark 16:16.
When, therefore, it is said that he “is the Saviour of ‘all’ people, ‘especially’ of those who believe,” it must mean that there is a sense in which it is true that he may be called the Saviour of all people, while, at the same time, it is “actually” true that those only are saved who believe.

As he {Christ} has “provided” salvation for all people. He is thus their Saviour - and may be called the common Saviour of all; that is, he has confined the offer of salvation to no one class of people; he has not limited the atonement to one division of the human race; and he actually saves all who are willing to be saved by him. Barnes


Rom 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

The apostle resumes the statement or proposition made in Romans 5:12, and after the intermediate explanation in the parenthesis Romans 5:13-17, in this verse and the following, sums up the whole subject. The explanation, therefore, of the previous verses is designed to convey the real meaning of Romans 5:18-19. Barnes

 

[Brightfame52]

@Brightfame52



Do you believe we're all born hell bound? At one time there was a 'cluster' of hardcore Calvinists on this board that believed that.

This is about limited atonement right ?

 

[Brightfame52]

Do infants that die in the 'first group of all men' go to hell? Some of those hardcore Calvinists insisted that they did. They made no room for an age of accountability other than what may have been included in one of their Confessions, (with no scriptural support).

Do you hold to an 'age of accountability'? If so, how do you support it with scripture?

Again this is about limited atonement. The all in Rom 5:18 is the same many in Rom 5:19 hence all of the many.

 

[Brightfame52]

Your truth not the biblical truth. You are reading into the text what you need to find to support your philosophy. It is not the bible you believe but yourself.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Who is the Saviour of all men - This must be understood as denoting that he is the Saviour of all people in some sense which differs from what is immediately affirmed - “especially of those that believe.”
It cannot mean that he brings all people to heaven, “especially” those who believe - for this would be nonsense....
Does it mean that he saves others “without” believing? But this would be contrary to the uniform doctrine of the Scriptures; see Mark 16:16.
When, therefore, it is said that he “is the Saviour of ‘all’ people, ‘especially’ of those who believe,” it must mean that there is a sense in which it is true that he may be called the Saviour of all people, while, at the same time, it is “actually” true that those only are saved who believe.

As he {Christ} has “provided” salvation for all people. He is thus their Saviour - and may be called the common Saviour of all; that is, he has confined the offer of salvation to no one class of people; he has not limited the atonement to one division of the human race; and he actually saves all who are willing to be saved by him. Barnes


Rom 5:18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

The apostle resumes the statement or proposition made in Romans 5:12, and after the intermediate explanation in the parenthesis Romans 5:13-17, in this verse and the following, sums up the whole subject. The explanation, therefore, of the previous verses is designed to convey the real meaning of Romans 5:18-19. Barnes

The all in Rom 5 18 is the same as the Many in Rom 5:19, and the the Saviour of all men in 1 Tim 4:10 is limited to the elect, them who come to believe.

 

[kyredneck]

This is about limited atonement right ?

The "one act of righteousness" in v 18 is about the atonement, right?

Again this is about limited atonement. The all in Rom 5:18 is the same many in Rom 5:19 hence all of the many.

It's not just 'all', it's ALL MEN. And THE MANY is mentioned four times, not twice.

So you're saying that 'the many' referred to four times and one of the 'all mens' are the elect, and the other 'all men' is everyone else? Is that right?

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam`s transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the trespass, so also is the free gift. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God, and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound unto the many.
16 And not as through one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment came of one unto condemnation, but the free gift came of many trespasses unto justification.
17 For if, by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; much more shall they that receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, even Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life.
19 For as through the one man`s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one shall the many be made righteous. Ro 5

 

[Silverhair]

The all in Rom 5 18 is the same as the Many in Rom 5:19, and the the Saviour of all men in 1 Tim 4:10 is limited to the elect, them who come to believe.

The more you keep repeating the same error the more we see that you do not trust scripture.

 

[Brightfame52]

@kyredneck

The "one act of righteousness" in v 18 is about the atonement, right?

Yes, it corresponds to the "obedience of one" in Vs 19

So the many that shall be made righteous in Vs 19 corresponds with the all the free gift of justification of life came upon.in Vs 18

Its pretty simple

And its the elect

 

[Brightfame52]

The more you keep repeating the same error the more we see that you do not trust scripture.

The all in Rom 5 18 is the same as the Many in Rom 5:19, and the the Saviour of all men in 1 Tim 4:10 is limited to the elect, them who come to believe.

 

[Silverhair]

The all in Rom 5 18 is the same as the Many in Rom 5:19, and the the Saviour of all men in 1 Tim 4:10 is limited to the elect, them who come to believe.

BF you can't see past your own closed mind. You ignore scripture.

 

[Brightfame52]

The truth of limited atonement is vital to the Christian Gospel, there's no Gospel without it. See 1 Cor 15:3. It refers specifically to the Death of Christ on the Cross, which death fully satisfied the law and justice of God for not all human beings but only for a certain group, the elect of God, Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now let's get one thing understood, when i speak of limited atonement, i don't mean by any means that Christ atoning death is limited in its power, but that its limited in that it doesn't cover or apply to everyone, but only applies to and covers the elect or chosen of God or the Church of God in Christ, or Gods Sheep.

 

[Dave G]

Where limited Atonement is actually believed and taught, by what Scripture can any lost persons have any grounds to know they were included in Christ's atonement for one's sins?

No lost person can have any grounds to know they were included in Christ's atonement.
Only the ones given to Jesus have any hope and knowledge of that... Only the "whosoever believeth" can be assured that their sins are forgiven.

There is no warrant for anyone to preach that "Jesus made it possible" for someone to be saved, neither is there any reason to tell the world-at-large that God loves them and sent His Son to bear their sins on the cross.


Paul preached Christ crucified for sinners, and that the one who believes on His Son can have assurance in any of it...no one else is included in that promise.

 

[Silverhair]

The truth of limited atonement is vital to the Christian Gospel, there's no Gospel without it. See 1 Cor 15:3. It refers specifically to the Death of Christ on the Cross, which death fully satisfied the law and justice of God for not all human beings but only for a certain group, the elect of God, Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Now let's get one thing understood, when i speak of limited atonement, i don't mean by any means that Christ atoning death is limited in its power, but that its limited in that it doesn't cover or apply to everyone, but only applies to and covers the elect or chosen of God or the Church of God in Christ, or Gods Sheep.

So you have a selective understanding of scripture, got it.

So the only sinners were your so called "elect" if we go by your understanding of scripture.

Heb 2:9 "...so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone"

1Jn 2:2 "...He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world"

1Ti 2:6 "...gave Himself as a ransom for all,"

1Ti 4:10 "...who is the Savior of all men"

Rom 5:6 "...Christ died for the ungodly"

Rom 5:8 "...while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us"

So by your comments Christ only atones for sins of the "elect" that would logically mean that everyone will be saved. Are you a closet universalist BF?

 

[Silverhair]

No lost person can have any grounds to know they were included in Christ's atonement.
Only the ones given to Jesus have any hope and knowledge of that... Only the "whosoever believeth" can be assured that their sins are forgiven.

There is no warrant for anyone to preach that "Jesus made it possible" for someone to be saved, neither is there any reason to tell the world-at-large that God loves them and sent His Son to bear their sins on the cross.


Paul preached Christ crucified for sinners, and that the one who believes on His Son can have assurance in any of it...no one else is included in that promise.

So I have to conclude that your bible does not contain these verses.

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

You should have them in your bible but perhaps you just have not read them or do not understand what they mean.

 

[37818]

No lost person can have any grounds to know they were included in Christ's atonement.
Only the ones given to Jesus have any hope and knowledge of that... Only the "whosoever believeth" can be assured that their sins are forgiven.

There is no warrant for anyone to preach that "Jesus made it possible" for someone to be saved, neither is there any reason to tell the world-at-large that God loves them and sent His Son to bear their sins on the cross.


Paul preached Christ crucified for sinners, and that the one who believes on His Son can have assurance in any of it...no one else is included in that promise.

There being zero Biblical grounds for anyone to know Christ had died for one not yet a believer. Then all those today have zero grounds.
Matthew 7:21.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

So by your comments Christ only atones for sins of the "elect"

Thats correct !

 

[Brightfame52]

So I have to conclude that your bible does not contain these verses.

Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

1Jn 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

1Ti 2:6 who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
Rom 10:10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

You should have them in your bible but perhaps you just have not read them or do not understand what they mean.

Those scriptures are limited to the elect !