Limited Atonement insanity.

[Dave G]

There being zero Biblical grounds for anyone to know Christ had died for one not yet a believer. Then all those today have zero grounds.

Except for God's elect, who can know that they are His, because He shows them and tells them through His Spirit and through His every word.

Paul never preached the way modern "preachers" today, do...
For example, he never told anyone that God loved them and that Christ died for their sins until after they evidenced that they were indeed, of God's elect;
He never told anyone that "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" the way I see it being preached on TV and on radio.

What we see in the book of Acts is a far cry from what is seen to the letters to the churches, sir.
Those letters are addressed to God's people...those that have believed on His Son through the preaching of His precious words...not to mankind in general.

I'm sorry if you don't see it that way, but it's there in the pages, and I see it clearly.

What's going on in most of today's "traditional" churches? is not what happened in the first century after the Lord began calling His elect out of every tongue, tribe and nation.

 

[kyredneck]

For example, he never told anyone that God loved them and that Christ died for their sins until after they evidenced that they were indeed, of God's elect;
He never told anyone that "God loves you and has a wonderful plan for your life" the way I see it being preached on TV and on radio.

AMEN!

11 And into whatsoever city or village ye shall enter, search out who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go forth. Mt 10

6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before the swine, lest haply they trample them under their feet, and turn and rend you. Mt 7

 

[Dave G]

So I have to conclude that your bible does not contain these verses.

God's word contains a lot more than what you're quoting, Silverhair.

You should have them in your bible but perhaps you just have not read them or do not understand what they mean.

By God's grace I now understand every one of them in their proper contexts, though I once did not.
My friend, they are "verses"...in other words, "soundbites", or pieces of things the Lord has said through His apostles that are often quoted out of context and misunderstood...again, out of context.

For example, in 1 Timothy 2 we read this:

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not; a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity."

I understand that the "all" and "all men" in 2:4 and 2:6 is defined, in context, by what Paul just told Timothy...
All kinds of men.

In Romans 1:16, I clearly see this:

" For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

In the above, I understand that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God unto salvation...to every one that believes...not to the one that does not.
The "every one that believeith" is clarified by the Lord in the very next "verse"..."the just". In other words, God's elect, the ones made righteous by His blood sacrifice on the cross.

Are you sure that we're reading and understanding the same Bible, Silverhair?
I'm sorry, but it doesn't seem to me that we are.

Perhaps I'm wrong; To me, you're quoting the Scriptures...but I don't think you see what they are actually stating.

 

[Dave G]

With that said, I will bow out of this thread...

I have no desire to further engage in discussion that is not ultimately profitable and / or edifying, and does not lead to a greater appreciation for every detail of what the Lord has done for His people.

May God bless you all the way He has me.

 

[Silverhair]

God's word contains a lot more than what you're quoting, Silverhair.

By God's grace I now understand every one of them in their proper contexts, though I once did not.
My friend, they are "verses"...in other words, "soundbites", or pieces of things the Lord has said through His apostles that are often quoted out of context and misunderstood...again, out of context.

For example, in 1 Timothy 2 we read this:

"I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not; a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity."

I understand that the "all" and "all men" in 2:4 and 2:6 is defined, in context, by what Paul just told Timothy...
All kinds of men.

But Paul did not write "all kinds of men" did he. So why do you add to the text. Is God not the savior of Kings and men in authority are they not included in "all men"?

In Romans 1:16, I clearly see this:

" For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

In the above, I understand that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God unto salvation...to every one that believes...not to the one that does not.
The "every one that believeith" is clarified by the Lord in the very next "verse"..."the just". In other words, God's elect, the ones made righteous by His blood sacrifice on the cross.

IAre you sure that we're reading and understanding the same Bible, Silverhair?

I'm sorry, but it doesn't seem to me that we are.

Perhaps I'm wrong; To me, you're quoting the Scriptures...but I don't think you see what they are actually stating.

I am not the one that has to read into the text or give special meanings to words. So I understand what the Holy Spirit intends for us to see in the text without all the extras that some require.

 

[Brightfame52]

Limited atonement is taught plainly in scripture !

Even though the natural man will attempt to explain away the truth of God as to who Christ specifically came to save through His blood, yet the testimony of God is true and all men liars.

That Christs death is limited to only a certain segment of men is seen here , a clear statement limiting the recipients of His Death, the Angelic heavenly testimony here Matt 1:20-21

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.


21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

His People here is another way of saying His Elect/Sheep !

 

[Brightfame52]

With that said, I will bow out of this thread...

I have no desire to further engage in discussion that is not ultimately profitable and / or edifying, and does not lead to a greater appreciation for every detail of what the Lord has done for His people.

May God bless you all the way He has me.

I find some of your comments useful and edifying, but I understand !

 

[DaveXR650]

Even though the natural man will attempt to explain away the truth of God as to who Christ specifically came to save through His blood, yet the testimony of God is true and all men liars.

That Christs death is limited to only a certain segment of men is seen here , a clear statement limiting the recipients of His Death, the Angelic heavenly testimony here Matt 1:20-21

Since I know for sure that plenty of people who firmly believe in the concept that Christ only died for his elect or his church also believe that anyone (whosoever) who believes or comes to Christ seeking pardon from sin will receive it freely, my question would be what is the emphasis on the limiting of the atonement designed to accomplish?

And to be fair, it works both ways. I know for sure, and can produce the quotes, that plenty of Reformers made the exact claim that the grounds for coming to Christ have to include the fact that atonement is provided for you. And others, even though they say you have no right, starting out, to assume that you are included in the atonement, they do explicitly teach that the offer of the gospel, that if you come to Christ by faith, you will be saved - is a true offer, open to everyone.

So my question is, what is really at the heart of this debate? What would be the next thing you said to someone if it were proven that you were right and had won? (Either side)

 

[Brightfame52]

Since I know for sure that plenty of people who firmly believe in the concept that Christ only died for his elect or his church also believe that anyone (whosoever) who believes or comes to Christ seeking pardon from sin will receive it freely, my question would be what is the emphasis on the limiting of the atonement designed to accomplish?

And to be fair, it works both ways. I know for sure, and can produce the quotes, that plenty of Reformers made the exact claim that the grounds for coming to Christ have to include the fact that atonement is provided for you. And others, even though they say you have no right, starting out, to assume that you are included in the atonement, they do explicitly teach that the offer of the gospel, that if you come to Christ by faith, you will be saved - is a true offer, open to everyone.

So my question is, what is really at the heart of this debate? What would be the next thing you said to someone if it were proven that you were right and had won? (Either side)

I believe we should be faithful to the declared truth, who Christ came to save, His People Matt 1:21, His Church Eph 5:25, The Sheep Jn 10:11,15 and that His doing and dying accomplished their Salvation, saved them, Justified them, made them righteous. 1 Pet 2:24;Rom 5:9; Gal 3:13

There's no room for His Blood merely provided Salvation, making it possible for anyone who fulfills a condition like believe, or repent, that immediately corrupts the Truth !

 

[Silverhair]

Limited atonement is taught plainly in scripture !

Even though the natural man will attempt to explain away the truth of God as to who Christ specifically came to save through His blood, yet the testimony of God is true and all men liars.

That Christs death is limited to only a certain segment of men is seen here , a clear statement limiting the recipients of His Death, the Angelic heavenly testimony here Matt 1:20-21

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.


21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

His People here is another way of saying His Elect/Sheep !

Actually if you just go by the context His people are the Jews, or we could say that His people are all of mankind since all mankind is His creation but we do not see any warrant to say that it is a special group as you suggest.

So once again we see the error of your theology in reading into the text what you need to find.

 

[37818]

New Limited atonement is taught plainly in scripture !

That is how you suppose you understand those Scriptures. Unless you can prove two things:
1) Identify each of actual reasons those who disagree with Limited Atonement do so.
2) Set side by side against each the simple truth you think you understand why each argument against Limited Atonement cannot be true.

 

[MrW]

The problem you will run into (insofar as debating the issue) is classic Penal Substitution Theory.

Note - I added "classic" to Penal Substitution Theory because the theory has been toned down by some sects.


Here is what I mean:

If God punished Jesus for the sins of men in their place (paying a type of "sin debt") then Jesus has already received their Judgment in their stead.

If this is everybody then everybody is saved (Jesus was punished instead of them on the cross....it was accomplished in the past).

Therefore God only laid the sins of a select group of people on Christ, punished Him for their sins only, acquiring "forgiveness" for only those people.


I understand neither of us believe that accurate. But how are you going to argue against those who do?


This is why I agree with @Van about limited atonement and classic Penal Substitution Theory being inseparable. If one is correct then so is the other. All stops there and no additional debate is posdibke (only belief statements).

But Christ dying didn’t save anyone—unless and until they believed on Him.

 

[JonC]

But Christ dying didn’t save anyone—unless and until they believed on Him.

Per Scripture, yes. I agree.

Christ's death was God reconciling man to Himself, not counting their sins against them.

But men still had to be reconciled to be saved (the ministry of reconciliation whereby we beg men to be reconciled to God).

 

[JonC]

But Christ dying didn’t save anyone—unless and until they believed on Him.

Per Scripture, yes. I agree.

Christ's death was God reconciling man to Himself, not counting their sins against them.

But men still had to be reconciled to be saved (the ministry of reconciliation whereby we beg men to be reconciled to God).

 

[Brightfame52]

Another passage of scripture that evidences the range of the death of Christ Jn 10:11,15

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.


Now Christ Sheep and His People are One and the same. Lets look at a Psalm for proof Ps 100:3

3 Know ye that the Lord he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.

And since scripture evidences that some of His Sheep are non jews/gentiles by Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep[gentiles] I have, which are not of this[jewish] fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Then its spiritually logical that His People in Matt 1:21 are not all of the jewish fold but also from among the gentile fold. Thats what James meant here Acts 15:14

14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

 

[DaveXR650]

Another passage of scripture that evidences the range of the death of Christ Jn 10:11,15

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.


Now Christ Sheep and His People are One and the same. Lets look at a Psalm for proof Ps 100:3

All those verses in the post do show that God brings about salvation and that he had in mind the elect at the atonement. But I think all those verses show definite intent and purpose but not that there is something that occurred at the death of Christ that by itself, and at that time, as we as human beings can understand it, forever shut out some and saved others.

This is why there are many moderate Calvinists who are uncomfortable with the "L" (limited atonement). Now, they are equally uncomfortable with the provisionist idea that God has provided a means but the rest is up to you. And there is a wide range of belief as to what extent the Holy Spirit drives a man's salvation. Is it conviction merely or overcoming and thus irresistable ? Is man capable of even desiring a pardon on his own? I think that the Holy Spirit is decisive in whether a given individual will be saved or not. And I'm not sure where I come down on it, but I can see how one can even go so far as to say that a person is actually born again before they have saving faith.

I just don't think that the Atonement by itself, mechanically shut out the non-elect. If so, the idea of a universal offer of salvation to all who hear is not valid and while I understand that position I don't think it is right. I also know that that is not what the great Reformers that I have read believed.

 

[37818]

Except for God's elect, who can know that they are His, because He shows them and tells them through His Spirit and through His every word.

What were the words where?

 

[Brightfame52]

All those verses in the post do show that God brings about salvation and that he had in mind the elect at the atonement. But I think all those verses show definite intent and purpose but not that there is something that occurred at the death of Christ that by itself, and at that time, as we as human beings can understand it, forever shut out some and saved others.

This is why there are many moderate Calvinists who are uncomfortable with the "L" (limited atonement). Now, they are equally uncomfortable with the provisionist idea that God has provided a means but the rest is up to you. And there is a wide range of belief as to what extent the Holy Spirit drives a man's salvation. Is it conviction merely or overcoming and thus irresistable ? Is man capable of even desiring a pardon on his own? I think that the Holy Spirit is decisive in whether a given individual will be saved or not. And I'm not sure where I come down on it, but I can see how one can even go so far as to say that a person is actually born again before they have saving faith.

I just don't think that the Atonement by itself, mechanically shut out the non-elect. If so, the idea of a universal offer of salvation to all who hear is not valid and while I understand that position I don't think it is right. I also know that that is not what the great Reformers that I have read believed.

There is no offer of Salvation at all, its 100% for the Sheep, and its 100% effectual for them alone. There is no compromise on the extent and the efficasiousness of the death of Christ.. Yes the non elect are shut out completely, its for the elect and the rest are blinded., thats the nature of Grace Salvation Rom 11:5-7

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

 

[DaveXR650]

its 100% for the Sheep, and its 100% effectual for them alone.

That's true as far as observing the result. But it's just as true that many Reformers regarded rejecting Christ as a great sin in itself, which it could not be if there was no offer of salvation.

. Yes the non elect are shut out completely, its for the elect and the rest are blinded., thats the nature of Grace Salvation Rom 11:5-7

Here again, anyone who believes that the work of the Holy Spirit is essential for salvation agrees with this in a sense, but notice that a judicial blinding does not refer to being shut out at the time of the Atonement, by the limiting of the Atonement itself. Instead it refers to the response to the gospel message.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

And this constantly comes up where you guys try to make faith a work. Faith is always what is contrasted with works. Works are not faith and it is a theological mistake when you assert this. Here again, this is why many of the Reformers wrote extensively on how that Christ can do nothing for you if you don't believe, or that you must strive to enter in the strait gate.

 

[Brightfame52]

That's true as far as observing the result. But it's just as true that many Reformers regarded rejecting Christ as a great sin in itself, which it could not be if there was no offer of salvation.

Here again, anyone who believes that the work of the Holy Spirit is essential for salvation agrees with this in a sense, but notice that a judicial blinding does not refer to being shut out at the time of the Atonement, by the limiting of the Atonement itself. Instead it refers to the response to the gospel message.

And this constantly comes up where you guys try to make faith a work. Faith is always what is contrasted with works. Works are not faith and it is a theological mistake when you assert this. Here again, this is why many of the Reformers wrote extensively on how that Christ can do nothing for you if you don't believe, or that you must strive to enter in the strait gate.

There is no offer of Salvation, that's heresy, the reformers you speak of are in error. Salvation in Christ is solely for the elect, and it should be stated so, and its communicated to them. See how specific Paul is 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Offering Salvation is a false gospel friend, follow the reformers to your own peril, may God deliver you