Limited Atonement: Let's set the record straight.

[BobRyan]

True - God sovereignly chooses "free will" which means that He would not be following each of his children around programming them to say each exact word he wanted said. (for example). And once you let someone else "choose" you have by definition voluntarily released some degree of micro-manage-control.

IF He was dictating "every word" then He "dictated blasphemy of His own name" at the trial of Christ and "Dictated" rebellion

That level of Calvinism does not survive even the basic facts of the matter.

 

[delizzle]

Jesus death had infinite value, as God died upon the Cross, and His death applied in a saving sense just towards the intended ones by God, His elect!

Since the Gospel is "the good news" of Jesus and "His death applied in a saving sense just towards the intended ones by God, His elect", the Gospel only applies in a saving sense just towards the intended ones by God, His elect.

Or in other words:

Premis 1: The Gospel is the good news of the saving death of Jesus.

Premise 2: "His death applied in a saving sense just towards the intended ones by God, His elect."

Premise 3: The Gospel is the good new of the saving death of Jesus and it only applied in a saving sense just toward the elect.

Conclusion: If the Gospel only applies in a saving sense to the elect, it doesnt apply in a saving sense to the non-elect.

True or false?

 

[delizzle]

The basic question would be 'why not?"
For if true, than God desire to save all sinners is being stopped in its tracks once again by human free will!

And so the delimma, "Is God a liar or powerless?". For the Armenians, they will explain that you are correct, "God's desire to save all sinners is being stopped in its tracks once again by human free will" God is therefore limited. Not necessarily because He has limited power. But rather, because he soveregnly chose to limit the application of His power on the will of His creation.

 

[delizzle]

That promise was made to those already saved, not to the lost!

So much for letting the Bible speak for itself.

 

[delizzle]

You are confusing Calvinism with a rather extreme form of Hyper-Calvinism.

How so?

 

[delizzle]

Of course we can know. We believe.

This error has already been corrected. Repeating it, after being corrected, is blatant hypocrisy.

Another blatant falsehood which has already been corrected.

Do you not agree with this statement?

“Christ did not die for all the sins of all men; for if this were so, why are not all freed from the punishment of all their sins? You will say, ‘Because of their unbelief,—they will not believe.’ But this unbelief is a sin, and Christ was punished for it. Why then does this, more than other sins, hinder them from partaking of the fruits of his death?”

 

[Iconoclast]

But if someone is not elect, they were never meant to accept the Gospel to begin with. So sharing the Gospel with a non-elect is nothing more than rubbing it in their faces that they are going to hell.

No person knows who is elect....this is a complete non issue.
The gospel is preached to all. Sometimes it seals the destiny;
14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

 

[TCassidy]

Christ died for all. The Atonement is sufficient for all. But the Atonement is only applied to believers. If the Atonement is applied to all, including unbelievers, you have believed the damnable heresy of Universalism (universal salvation).

 

[Iconoclast]

Pastor Bob,
Those that did look lived. Those who hear the gospel and believe will live eternally. Many will never hear the gospel and go to second death.
God has elected a multitude to believe, to look and live, and he has provided all the means to accomplish His purpose.
Not one more, or not one less person will be saved than those ordained by God.
We are not able to see heart condidtions, so we preach to all.
the unseen work of the Spirit will draw and give new hearts to each and everyone who God has purposed to save.
No one keeps the others out....they have no desire for it, and those who never hear of it...love their sin and go to second death justly for their sin.

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe scripture teaches Jesus died a Covenant death only for the elect.
he bought the rights to all men by virtue of His death on the cross....but he has purposed to save All the Father has Given to Him;
jn17;
17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh,

that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Heb2;
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.

13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

 

[delizzle]

First, you need to copy and past from a Calvinist website a definition of "Limited Atonement." Otherwise they claim your view is not correct. It is a ploy.

I will be happy to allow a Calvinist to provide a definition of their choosing. Lest I am accused of bias.

 

[delizzle]

Christ died for all. The Atonement is sufficient for all. But the Atonement is only applied to believers. If the Atonement is applied to all, including unbelievers, you have believed the damnable heresy of Universalism (universal salvation).

That is not limited atonement. It is universal atonement with a limited application. You should know this. It's in the book you taught out of.

"The Scriptures represent the atonement as having been made for all men, and as sufficient for the salvation of all. Not the atonement therefore is limited, but the application of the atonement through the work of the Holy Spirit. Upon this principle of a universal atonement, but a special application of it to the elect, we must interpret such passages as Eph. 1:4, 7; 2 Tim. 1:9, 10; John 17:9, 20, 24—asserting a special efficacy of the atonement in the case of the elect; and also such passages as 2 Pet. 2:1; 1 John 2:2; Tim. 2:6; 4:10; Tit. 2:11—asserting that the death of Christ is for all" (strong 1907, 455)

 

[TCassidy]

That is not limited atonement. It is universal atonement with a limited application. You should know this. It's in the book you taught out of.

"The Scriptures represent the atonement as having been made for all men, and as sufficient for the salvation of all. Not the atonement therefore is limited, but the application of the atonement through the work of the Holy Spirit. Upon this principle of a universal atonement, but a special application of it to the elect, we must interpret such passages as Eph. 1:4, 7; 2 Tim. 1:9, 10; John 17:9, 20, 24—asserting a special efficacy of the atonement in the case of the elect; and also such passages as 2 Pet. 2:1; 1 John 2:2; Tim. 2:6; 4:10; Tit. 2:11—asserting that the death of Christ is for all" (strong 1907, 455)

Yes. Strong was a 5 Point Calvinist. He understood the fact that the "L" in TULIP limited the APPLICATION of the Atonement, not its sufficiency for all sins of all people.

Once again, if you would stop posting debunked nonsense and calling it "calvinism" and actually find out what we believe you may be just a bit wiser.

 

[JonShaff]

2 Tim 2:24
A servant of the Lord must not quarrel but must be kind to everyone, be able to teach, and be patient with difficult people.

A healthy reminder for us all;

 

[delizzle]

Yes. Strong was a 5 Point Calvinist. He understood the fact that the "L" in TULIP limited the APPLICATION of the Atonement, not its sufficiency for all sins of all people.

Once again, if you would stop posting debunked nonsense and calling it "calvinism" and actually find out what we believe you may be just a bit wiser.

Yet he clearly states that "the atonement was not limited" it was universal atonement. Something you clearly stated that you rejected.

See post 36.

 

[TCassidy]

Yet he clearly states that "the atonement was not limited" it was universal atonement. Something you clearly stated that you rejected.

Once again you display an alarming ignorance of the subject you are trying to discuss. The Atonement is limited in its application, not in its sufficiency for every sin committed by every person who ever lived or ever will live (IE, universal sufficiency). Failure to understand that very important distinction has led to your confusion.

To believe in the universal application of the Atonement is to believe in the damnable heresy of Universalism.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

How so?

But if someone is not elect, they were never meant to accept the Gospel to begin with. So sharing the Gospel with a non-elect is nothing more than rubbing it in their faces that they are going to hell.

This is, as I said, a rather extreme form of hyper-Calvinism.
The Gospel goes out to everyone without distinction and the Lord Jesus says, 'The one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out' (John 6:37b). The greatest preachers (Bunyan, Whitefield, Spurgeon etc.) were Calvinists and they pleaded with men to come to Christ.
But the sad fact is that men will not come to Christ. This is not because God prevents them, but because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts. There is a great number of texts showing this: John 3:19; 10:26; Romans 3:10-11; 8:5-8; 1 Corinthians 1:22-23; 2:14 come to mind immediately. But if they would come, Christ would not cast them out.

Foreseeing man's hardness of heart and wickedness, in eternity past God the Father decreed salvation for a vast number (Revelation 7:9) of guilty sinners (2 Thessalonians 2:13; Titus 1:2). These He gave to the Son (John 6:37a, 39; 10:29; Ephesians 1:3-6) who has redeemed them at measureless cost, and the Holy Spirit has sealed them until the day of Redemption (Ephesians 1:13-14) and they will come. 'My sheep hear My voice and I know them and they follow Me' (John 10:27).

That is why the great crowd of Revelation 7:9 are singing, 'salvation belongs to our God and to the Lamb.' How blessed it is that it doesn't belong to us, because we would inevitably refuse it.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

asserting a special efficacy of the atonement in the case of the elect

Will you please define 'a special efficacy'? Either the atonement is efficacious or it isn't.

 

[delizzle]

Once again you display an alarming ignorance of the subject you are trying to discuss. The Atonement is limited in its application, not in its sufficiency for every sin committed by every person who ever lived or ever will live (IE, universal sufficiency). Failure to understand that very important distinction has led to your confusion.

To believe in the universal application of the Atonement is to believe in the damnable heresy of Universalism.

The Scriptures represent the atonement as having been made for all men, and as sufficient for the salvation of all. Not the atonement therefore is limited, but the application of the atonement through the work of the Holy Spirit.Upon this principle of a universal atonement, but a special application of it to the elect, we must interpret such passages as Eph. 1:4, 7; 2 Tim. 1:9, 10; John 17:9, 20, 24—asserting a special efficacy of the atonement in the case of the elect; and also such passages as 2 Pet. 2:1; 1 John 2:2; Tim. 2:6; 4:10; Tit. 2:11—asserting that the death of Christ is for all

Seeing how you read your own textbook the same way you read the bible. It answers a lot.

 

[BobRyan]

Once again you display an alarming ignorance of the subject you are trying to discuss. The Atonement is limited in its application, not in its sufficiency for every sin committed by every person who ever lived or ever will live (IE, universal sufficiency). Failure to understand that very important distinction has led to your confusion.

To believe in the universal application of the Atonement is to believe in the damnable heresy of Universalism.

1. If I only had a nickle for every time a Calvinist called a fellow-Calvinist or non-Calvinist "ignorant"
2. As noted in post #2 #2 - when Calvinists are not allowed to redefine terms found in 1 John 2:2 to 'fit into Calvinism' they argue the false-alternative that only "'universalism' is allowed as the other option.

They are of course wrong on both counts