Limited Atonement

[TCGreek]

My $0.02 worth on Eph 2:8 and faith:

The entire salvation experience is a gift, including faith.

 

[AresMan]

God OFFERS faith --- just like He OFFERS salvation. He cannot give it to those who won't take hold of it, James.

Then, no one will get saved. The Father must draw one and give him to the Son before he will see, believe, and come; and all those who are drawn and given to the Son will see, believe and come (John 6).

The "offer" is to all without exception.
All without exception reject.
The Holy Spirit regenerates and changes hearts so that they believe.

This is NOT an issue of what omnipotent God COULD do if He wanted to. He wants to save everyone ("...not willing that any should perish but that all should come to salvation.").

Have you read the context of 2 Peter 3:9? Do you understand what us-ward means and its antecedent?

He doesn't because that would be an abuse of His power over our God-given liberty.

Where is this explained in the Bible. What I see are "no one seeks after God," "bondage to sin," "no one can come to the Son unless the Father draws him," "all that the Father gives to the Son shall come," and "of all that the Father gives to the Son, he will lose none." I don't see anywhere that the Bible talks about this so-called tabula rasa libertarian "free will" that God has given to man that He must not "violate."

Suppose they only think they believe, James? Suppose for a minute that the do believe but it is another gospel that they think is God's gospel? And if that be so, do they meet their own understanding for being "elect" but not God's standard for being "saved?"

Those who believe = those who are saved = those who are elect. The same channel by which you believe one is saved is the same channel by which Reformed theologians believe one is saved. The difference is that Reformed theologians believe that the Bible clearly teaches that election causes faith and not the other way around.

I just toss this out because when you say that God's power makes believers of them, it sounds to me more like "conformity" than "conversion." And conformity, you realize, is major issue in the Millennial Kingdom where, until Satan is released again, most men will "heel" to the awesome power of Christ's authority.

How in the world is this a proverbial problem with Reformed soteriology and not equally the same with semi-Pelagian soteriology? The primary debatable difference here is not in the nature or surety of saving faith, but in the cause of it.

 

[skypair]

Ares --- man! Haven't seen you in a long time! So ... what's new?? :laugh:

The Father must draw one...

Uh, yeah.

...and give him to the Son

Are you saying as in prearranged marriage? But basically, if I understand correctly, your theology has it the other way around, Ares. Your theology says some were "given" to Christ so that they can see and believe. IOW, they have Christ's Spirit in them already so they can "hear" His "effectual call." Basically, they "come" and then they are "drawn," eh?

The "offer" is to all without exception.
All without exception reject.
The Holy Spirit regenerates and changes hearts so that they believe.

OK, bear with me. Your proposition has many flaws. 1) The gospel of Jesus Christ is not offered to "all." The "everlasting gospel" in creation IS offered to all. 2) The OT never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. Many of them DID receive the everlasting gospel. 3) The OT saints were NEVER regenerated by the Holy Spirit (remember Jer 31:31 said "I WILL put in you..., not "I have put in you...) --- so they are all lost? 4) SALVATION has been offered to ALL mentally mature adults. Most reject the "drawing" of the Spirit on intellectual, emotional, or willful grounds. But let's be honest with each other, OK? The gospel of Jesus Christ is an intellectual appeal to man's SPIRIT to choose to change the guiding entity in their SOUL/conscience from "death" to "Life" -- from self to God.

The SOUL, which Calvinism has no use for, is what must be changed. It holds the "eternal key" to either heaven or hell. If your spirit is the "book of works," your soul is the "book of life." It doesn't count that Herod was "almost persuaded" in his spirit -- his soul never got saved.

For the life of me I can't theologically nor logically comprehend how Calvies can put draw before come and yet claim regeneration ("coming") before hearing, seeing, and believing ("drawing"???). Put another way, if you have come to the point where you are regenerated/reborn/saved, what is the purpose of drawing?? To service, maybe? To sanctification?

Where is this explained in the Bible. What I see are "no one seeks after God,"

What about "Seek and ye shall find?" What about Acts 17:26-27 "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:..." You're just being dishonest with me again, aren't you?

I don't see anywhere that the Bible talks about this so-called tabula rasa libertarian "free will" that God has given to man that He must not "violate."

Nor can a thief find a cop when he's making his escape! :laugh: I will agree that the soul that has sinned is NOT free anymore to relate to God -- is, to Him, "dead."

Fortunately, the SPIRIT of man is a neutral, often objective observer with direct input from the ears, eyes, nose,... You get the idea. If the spirit can be persuaded to go "flip" that "soul-switch" from "OFF" (self) to "ON" (God), Then the "power" (Spirit) can come into one's life and "quicken" the flesh ("works") unto justification and sanctification of the persuaded, obedient believer.

I hope you are taking notes cause your "learning opportunity" and my "teachable moment" probably doesn't come along every day.

The difference is that Reformed theologians believe that the Bible clearly teaches that election causes faith and not the other way around.

That'd be different than what I just described alright! In fact, it pretty much takes for granted that the "elect" -- apparently, those who belong to their church -- are saved already and just learning how to be sanctified.

skypair

 

[stilllearning]

Hi AresMan


I am not really taking sides here;(Because I am Still Learning

Although, I do believe that God has given to each of us a “free will”, to accept or reject His free gift.
--------------------------------------------------
But you said...........

“I don't see anywhere that the Bible talks about this so-called tabula rasa libertarian free will" that God has given to man that He must not "violate."

What about......

Revelation 3:20
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

Isn’t this God, knocking at our heart’s door?