Limited Atonement

[skypair]

As you can see, Romans 8:29-30 says that God (by His foreknowledge), predetermined who He was going to call,...

Not so. He predestinated BELIEVERS -- those whom He foreknew would BELIEVE -- to "be conformed to the image of His Son.

Then, in the course of time (8:30), He did call those whom He predestinated. He called them along with everyone else, John 3:16. Just because the unsaved are not mentioned does not mean they are not called as well.

And 1 Peter 1:2 says, that God(by His foreknowledge), elected or chose, those individuals, who were going to be saved.

Try this: Try placing the word "church" where you read "elect" here and see if it doesn't make more sense.

...to the strangers scattered in ... who are now the church according to God's foreknowledge of believers whom He has now sanctified with the Spirit and cleansed with Christ's blood.

What is wrong, with saying that we are "Elected to salvation"?

We're trying to get over the notion that, because people come to church and understand what the preacher is saying, they believe they are "elect"/justified.

Calvies and Reformers have this notion that they are "regenerated," then the walk into the doors of the church and hear the gospel, agree, and so realize they are already saved/elected. This happens daily at true Reform/Calvie churches (though many here being "Baptists" do not have that testimony.).

But being of the state of mind that I just described, what is the next thing you would do? Ask God to save you? Uh, n-n-no. You're already saved, right? And as good Calvies/Reformers will add, your salvation is not up to you and your decisions.

But neglecting to do so, you unwittingly (due to poor teaching) just skipped the justification step of salvation (see James article - God has not 'hired' you). You just by-passed getting your "green card" with which you could begin legally working on your sanctification. Basically, you can try to sanctify yourself all you want (which they do mightily, especially those who believe in "Lordship salvation"), but they know and you know that unless they really are saved, all this "work" is "filthy rags."

Now some here object saying they do all those things I just mentioned. They "trust Christ for salvation," repent, are baptized, etc. But if one is already saved, what do those works constitute according to their sotierology? By presuming to already be saved/elect, these acts all become "works" of sanctification, right?

I know -- this explanation may be hard to follow. Just know this -- and I feel you do -- we must demonstrate faith toward God/Christ before we are regenerated/born again. And these 2 terms (regenerated/born again) mean the same thing -- reborn spiritually by the Holy Spirit.

skypair

 

[skypair]

James,

In those citations, you are NOT respecting the "conditions," the stipulations, presented. You are looking at "chosen" and "salvation" for the sum total of your proof.

Ex: "Elect ... in the sanctification of the Spirit." How does one get sanctified of the Spirit?" He must first be justified in Christ, right? So "election" is conditional on one's being sanctified -- which no unbliever is, are they?

Let's look at another similar one: "because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" Again note the conditionality of their salvation -- "sanctification of the Spirit and BELIEF of the truth." Another way to put it might be "you were chosen to go to heaven/glory because you believed" (which, not incidentally, is what Rom 8:29-30 says too).

Well, you can finish the rest. I am confident God is not going to contradict His gospel of "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

skypair

 

[Rippon]

Please furnish a list of Reformed scholars who deny that faith is the gift in Ephesians 2:8. ( Never mind the fact that it is considered a gift or grant of God in other passages).

Webdog, the challenge has been put forth for you to furnish a list of Reformed scholars who deny that faith is the gift in Ephesians 2:8.Simply saying that a bunch of Reformed scholars deny it is not proof, just an empty assertion.

BTW,my pastor, who certainly doesn't regard himself as a Calvinist, was sounding very Calvinistic today.He was using the KJV which I don't have handy right now. He spoke of faith that is obtained,not self-generated.He developed the doctrine that faith is given to those of God's choosing.He referenced Ephesians 2:8 as demonstrating the same.I commended him for being very biblical ( not that he's unbiblical on other occasions

Since you aren't a Calvinist, when your Calvinistic pastor preaches on passages such as Ephesians 2:8 and 2 Peter 1:1 -- do you get upset with him?

 

[stilllearning]

Hi skypair


Nice to hear from you.

You said........

“Then, in the course of time (8:30), He did call those whom He predestinated. He called them along with everyone else, John 3:16. Just because the unsaved are not mentioned does not mean they are not called as well.”

And I agree with every word.

But can I assume, that because you said it, that those here, who are Calvinists, don’t believe it?!?
--------------------------------------------------
Also to James you said........

“Again note the conditionality of their salvation -- "sanctification of the Spirit and BELIEF of the truth."

I agree, with “the conditionality of their salvation”, even thou in God’s eye(understanding), the conditions have already been met, for those who will get saved!
--------------------------------------------------
-Those that will be saved, are called-

Romans 8:30
V.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

-But also, everyone is called-

Matthew 22:14
“For many are called, but few [are] chosen.”

-You can’t be saved, unless your drawn-

John 6:44
“No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

-But everyone is drawn-

John 12:32
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.”

--------------------------------------------------
I believe that the LORD did it this way, because of His righteousness.

Every lost person that stands before the “great white throne of judgement”, will have had every chance at salvation, that every saved person had, that stand before the “Judgement seat of Christ”.

 

[Rippon]

Everyone is not drawn ( see John 6 for details) only the ones the Father decides to give to Jesus. Everyone is not called ( see Romans 8:28-30,esp. v.30).God has limited the ones thus predestined,called,justified,and glorified to a select number.

 

[Jarthur001]

James,

In those citations, you are NOT respecting the "conditions," the stipulations, presented. You are looking at "chosen" and "salvation" for the sum total of your proof.

Ex: "Elect ... in the sanctification of the Spirit." How does one get sanctified of the Spirit?" He must first be justified in Christ, right? So "election" is conditional on one's being sanctified -- which no unbliever is, are they?

Let's look at another similar one: "because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:" Again note the conditionality of their salvation -- "sanctification of the Spirit and BELIEF of the truth." Another way to put it might be "you were chosen to go to heaven/glory because you believed" (which, not incidentally, is what Rom 8:29-30 says too).

Well, you can finish the rest. I am confident God is not going to contradict His gospel of "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

skypair

Before you go changing Gods Word, why not check with Him to see if its ok.

The reason we are chosen is what is at hand.

Who does the chosing....?
For what reason....?

Quote:
1 Peter 1

Greeting

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,


To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:

Quote:
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Quote:
James 2:5
Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him

Quote:
1 Corinthians 1
30And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

Quote:
2 Timothy 2
4No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier

Quote:
Isaiah 43
10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

No need to change the words. It is what it is. Believe it and be glad

 

[Jarthur001]

Sky...you also said...

Well, you can finish the rest. I am confident God is not going to contradict His gospel of "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

Noticed how you changed subjects on this?

We were talking about election/chosen. This is about believing. All of mankind is asked to believe. Yet who does save the power of the Holy Spirit when he opens the eyes of the unbeliever and thereby gives faith. I will answer for you. None.

The call goes to all, but only the elect will believe and only after Holy Spirit has worked on them.

 

[Jarthur001]

Also to James you said........

“Again note the conditionality of their salvation -- "sanctification of the Spirit and BELIEF of the truth."

I agree, with “the conditionality of their salvation”, even thou in God’s eye(understanding), the conditions have already been met, for those who will get saved!
--------------------------------------------------

Please post me the link where I said this in context. Thanks

 

[webdog]

Webdog, the challenge has been put forth for you to furnish a list of Reformed scholars who deny that faith is the gift in Ephesians 2:8.Simply saying that a bunch of Reformed scholars deny it is not proof, just an empty assertion.

BTW,my pastor, who certainly doesn't regard himself as a Calvinist, was sounding very Calvinistic today.He was using the KJV which I don't have handy right now. He spoke of faith that is obtained,not self-generated.He developed the doctrine that faith is given to those of God's choosing.He referenced Ephesians 2:8 as demonstrating the same.I commended him for being very biblical ( not that he's unbiblical on other occasions

Since you aren't a Calvinist, when your Calvinistic pastor preaches on passages such as Ephesians 2:8 and 2 Peter 1:1 -- do you get upset with him?

First, why would I get upset...because you do? If you are as angry as you are here on the BB, I feel sorry for you.

Here's Vince Gill and Albert Barnes' take on that passage. Unlike you, I don't have a rolodex of reformed theologians I run to for advice, but this should do. Notice the second sentence I bolded. He does hold to faith as being a gift, just not in this passage as it is used.

For by grace are ye saved - By mere favor. It is not by your Own merit; it is not because you have any claim. This is a favorite doctrine with Paul, as it is with all who love the Lord Jesus in sincerity; compare the notes at Rom_1:7; Rom_3:24, note.
Through faith - Grace bestowed through faith, or in connection with believing; see the notes at Rom_1:17; Rom_4:16, note.
And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - τοῦτοtouto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - πίστιςpistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield. Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word "that" (τοῦτοtouto) refers to "faith" (πίστιςpistis); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not untenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance.
Whether this passage proves it or not, it is certainly true that faith is the gift of God. It exists in the mind only when the Holy Spirit produces it there, and is, in common with every other Christian excellence, to be traced to his agency on the heart. This opinion, however, does not militate at all with the doctrine that man himself "believes." It is not God that "believes" for him, for that is impossible. It is his own mind that actually believes, or that exercises faith; see the notes at Rom_4:3. In the same manner "repentance" is to be traced to God. It is one of the fruits of the operation of the Holy Spirit on the soul. But the Holy Spirit does not "repent" for us. It is our "own mind" that repents; our own heart that feels; our own eyes that weep - and without this there can he no true repentance. No one can repent for another; and God neither can nor ought to repent; for us. He has done no wrong, and if repentance is ever exercised, therefore, it must be exercised by our own minds. So of faith. God cannot believe for us. "We" must believe, or "we" shall be damned. Still this does not conflict at all with the opinion, that if we exercise faith, the inclination to do it is to be traced to the agency of God on the heart. I would not contend, therefore, about the grammatical construction of this passage, with respect to the point of the theology contained in it; still it accords better with the obvious grammatical construction, and with the design of the passage to understand the word "that" as referring not to "faith" only, but to "salvation by grace." So Calvin understands it, and so it is understood by Storr, Locke, Clarke, Koppe, Grotius, and others.
It is the gift of God - Salvation by grace is his gift. It is not of merit; it is wholly by favor.

through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; salvation is through faith, not as a cause or condition of salvation, or as what adds anything to the blessing itself; but it is the way, or means, or instrument, which God has appointed, for the receiving and enjoying it, that so it might appear to be all of grace; and this faith is not the produce of man's free will and power, but it is the free gift of God; and therefore salvation through it is consistent with salvation by grace; since that itself is of grace, lies entirely in receiving grace and gives all the glory to the grace of God: the sense of this last clause may be, that salvation is not of ourselves; it is not of our desiring nor of our deserving, nor of our performing, but is of the free grace of God: though faith is elsewhere represented as the gift of God, Joh_6:65 and it is called the special gift of faith, in the Apocrypha:

 

[AresMan]

Christ's work + our faith = salvation.

The correct equation is

Christ's work = salvation, WHERE faith ⊂ salvation.

 

[webdog]

The correct equation is

Christ's work = salvation, WHERE faith ⊂ salvation.

No...Amy is correct. Atonement is not salvation. Salvation is by grace THROUGH faith.

 

[Jarthur001]

No...Amy is correct. Atonement is not salvation. Salvation is by grace THROUGH faith.

The atonement is not grace?

 

[webdog]

The atonement is not grace?

The atonement is not salvation...what I stated. Of course the atonement is God's grace. That's christianity 101

 

[Jarthur001]

The atonement is not salvation...what I stated. Of course the atonement is God's grace. That's christianity 101

The atonement is mans reconciliation with God through the sacrifice of Jesus own death. Adam's sin caused the relationship between man and God, to bring death to the race, but Christ took the guilt of his people by giving His life in place of ours, as a ransom thereby making the sinner "right" with God.

That is not salvation?

 

[Amy.G]

The atonement is mans reconciliation with God through the sacrifice of Jesus own death. Adam's sin caused the relationship between man and God, to bring death to the race, but Christ took the guilt of his people by giving His life in place of ours, as a ransom thereby making the sinner "right" with God.

That is not salvation?

Without faith it isn't.

 

[Jarthur001]

Without faith it isn't.

The atonement is mans reconciliation with God through the sacrifice of Jesus own death. Adam's sin caused the relationship between man and God, to bring death to the race, but Christ took the guilt of his people by giving His life in place of ours, as a ransom thereby making the sinner "right" with God.

Is this not salvation, even if you do not believe it is salvation?

 

[Amy.G]

Is this not salvation, even if you do not believe it is salvation?

Salvation is Christ's atonement for sin and our faith in Him.


Jhn 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

We must believe/have faith. Without faith you will not be saved.

Are you saying that we can be saved whether we have faith or not?

 

[Jarthur001]

Salvation is Christ's atonement for sin and our faith in Him.

which is about what AresMan said that web disagreed with

Christ's work = salvation, WHERE faith ⊂ salvation

.

Jhn 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Good verse. Believe and faith have the same meaning as I'm sure you know. Who gives faith? Is it a gift of God?

Are you saying that we can be saved whether we have faith or not?

You seem to always see it from the human side which is based on man. To fight for mans will, brings no glory to God. God is the one that saves. God will save his church/people/elect. God gives faith to these, that they may place their faith in Christ. As has been shown before...

Quote:
1 Peter 1
Greeting

1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,


To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood:

Quote:
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth

:

Quote:
James 2:5
Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love hi

m

Quote:
1 Corinthians 1
30And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31so that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

Quote:
2 Timothy 2
4No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier

Quote:
Isaiah 43
10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

And then guess what? Because God has all power, they did believe.

Lift high the name of God and you will never be wrong.

Lift high the will of man and you will always be wrong

 

[webdog]

Is this not salvation, even if you do not believe it is salvation?

Someone has salvation that doesn't believe? Surely you don't believe that!

 

[skypair]

The reason we are chosen is what is at hand.

Who does the chosing....?

In the context, God.

For what reason....?

Because we believe and are sanctified for His purposes.

No need to change the words. It is what it is. Believe it and be glad

James, you know I wouldn't do that. :type: All those "throughs" and "ins" were already there and NOT to be ignored.

But furthermore, it hardly helps your case that you use a "parable" about soldiers and Isaiah speaking about Christ (the One Person God DID choose on His own) to prove your point.

skypair