Limited Atonement

[Bro. James]

Limited Atonement: an interesting doctrine.

Can we draw any analogies between The Flood of Noah and the notion that God can and has saved whom He wills?

God destroyed the world and all life, save that which was on the Ark. The scripture says: Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. It does not say Noah deserved being preserved along with his immediate family.

Noah preached for 120 yrs. while building the Ark. Does this mean all those who perished were exercising their free wills?

God is not obligated to save anyone.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Jarthur001]

[

QUOTE]Originally Posted by Jarthur001
I would be very surprised if any Calvinist jump all over you.

I'm sure it will be nothing like what you went though when you stated to study it on your own, and the name calling you got from the non-Calvinist. (ok..that was a bit of a slam....but I'm sure they can take it).

Provide the name calling incidents...or retract this.

[/QUOTE]

I was wrong...they can't take it.

If you are worried about it web, you must prove I am wrong. I'm not going to waste my time. But once you prove it, I will recant. Other wise "here I stand".

 

[webdog]

[




I was wrong...they can't take it.

If you are worried about it web, you must prove I am wrong. I'm not going to waste my time. But once you prove it, I will recant. Other wise "here I stand".

The one making the outlandish statement should be able to prove the outlandish statement. It is not up to the one calling you out to prove you wrong. No wonder you don't know how to debate properly. Quit spreading the vitriol for a change. Either you stated that to get a response...which you did...or you lied. Which is it?

 

[Plain Old Bill]

Jaurthor01,
Those are Calvins own words in HIS commentary ,I did'nt write it I just read it.

He's also not so detailed in salvation as some on this board. Calvins notes on acts16:31

31.​

​

Believe in the Lord Jesus. This is but a short, and, to look to, a cold
and hungry definition of salvation, and yet it is perfect to believe in Christ.
For Christ alone hath all the parts of blessedness and eternal life included
in him, which he offereth to us by the gospel; and by faith we receive
them, as I have declared, (<441509>Acts 15:9.) And here we must note two
things; first, that Christ is the mark F1077 whereat faith must aim; and,
therefore, men’s minds do nothing else but wander when they turn aside​

from him.

 

[Jarthur001]

Limited Atonement: an interesting doctrine.

Can we draw any analogies between The Flood of Noah and the notion that God can and has saved whom He wills?

God destroyed the world and all life, save that which was on the Ark. The scripture says: Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. It does not say Noah deserved being preserved along with his immediate family.

Noah preached for 120 yrs. while building the Ark. Does this mean all those who perished were exercising their free wills?

God is not obligated to save anyone.

Selah,

Bro. James

Indeed Bro. James

What I have asked before is was the ark made to hold the whole world, if they had come?

 

[Plain Old Bill]

By the way I am not a John Calvin hater, I have everything he has ever written. I don't agree with him on everything but then nobody gets 100%.
I do like most of his commentaries.

 

[webdog]

Limited Atonement: an interesting doctrine.

Can we draw any analogies between The Flood of Noah and the notion that God can and has saved whom He wills?

God destroyed the world and all life, save that which was on the Ark. The scripture says: Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. It does not say Noah deserved being preserved along with his immediate family.

Noah preached for 120 yrs. while building the Ark. Does this mean all those who perished were exercising their free wills?

God is not obligated to save anyone.

Selah,

Bro. James

You are misapplying the ark analogy. Noah and his family were already God's. God kept His own safe. Noah was righteos...by grace through faith.

 

[Jarthur001]

Jaurthor01,
Those are Calvins own words in HIS commentary ,I did'nt write it I just read it.

I understand and agree. What I said is that Calvin said this also in the same commentary.

"Then under the word all or whole, he does not include the reprobate, but designates those who should believe as well as those who were then scattered through various parts of the world. For then is really made evident, as it is meet, the grace of Christ, when it is declared to be the only true salvation of the world.

"

He's also not so detailed in salvation as some on this board. Calvins notes on acts16:31

31.​

​

Believe in the Lord Jesus. This is but a short, and, to look to, a cold
and hungry definition of salvation, and yet it is perfect to believe in Christ.
For Christ alone hath all the parts of blessedness and eternal life included
in him, which he offereth to us by the gospel; and by faith we receive
them, as I have declared, (<441509>Acts 15:9.) And here we must note two
things; first, that Christ is the mark F1077 whereat faith must aim; and,
therefore, men’s minds do nothing else but wander when they turn aside​

from him.

[/QUOTE]

Could you please give the book in which this quote is found. I cannot seem to find it.

Thanks.

 

[skypair]

It matters not that others could come into the nation Allan. We are talking about who the atonement is applied to. It is applied to NNE outside the nation. NONE. ZERO!!!

OK, so YOU are not included either. Is that what you mean? And Noah, Abel, Adam -- they weren't "Israelis." They aren't included either, right?

skypair

 

[Amy.G]

Indeed Bro. James

What I have asked before is was the ark made to hold the whole world, if they had come?

The ark wasn't made to hold the whole world, but if the whole had come, the ark wouldn't have been needed.



Noah was declared righteous for the same reason that Abraham was...because he believed God. (Galations 3:6)

The rest of Noah's world did not believe God. Instead they turned away from God and became increasingly more wicked. (Romans 1:28)

 

[MB]

I often wish that tulip did not exist. No, not the flower (though I do suffer with hay-fever ), but the acronym. As far as I know, the phrase "Limited Atonement" was invented for the sake of making an acronym that is a word in its own right, TULIP. "Limited" seems to imply the idea of fewness. "Particular Redemption" seems better, for there is no idea of fewness, yet it encompasses the fact that Jesus Christ, as He Himself put it in John 10.15, laid down His life for the sheep. And remember, He said to some Jews later in the same chapter, in John 10.26-29:

26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand."


​

So Jesus says that He lays down His life for His sheep in particular, because not everyone is "of His sheep".

Hi David;
You'd have a hard time of proving anyone is His before they are. No one is a sheep of Christ until they are saved. The problem with particular redemption is that God is not a respecter of men and a particular election would make Him one.
Particular election means the Father can't save certain ones and that isn't true. It tramples on the Sovereignty of God. It tells God He cannot save whom He may want to.

I agree that Peter's “......even denying the Lord that bought them” is not easy, and I don't claim to understand the verse fully. But unless Jesus was mistaken in John 10, 2 Peter 2.1 cannot mean that any of those for who the Saviour shed His blood will end up in hell. Jesus also said in John 6.7-39:

37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."​

Jn10:15
Does say He layed down His life for the sheep which was Israel and the other sheep in verse 16 is the rest of the world. The fold He was speaking of was the Jews.
Verse 26 says if we don't believe we are not His sheep. No one has always believed. The man doesn't exist that has always been a sheep.
I do not disagree with Jn 6:37-39. Calvinist, assume they have been given before they have been.
Could you explain How no man can come to the Father except through Christ. I've been told that the Holy Spirit is who saves through regeneration before belief in Christ.
MB

 

[MB]

The ark wasn't made to hold the whole world, but if the whole had come, the ark wouldn't have been needed.



Noah was declared righteous for the same reason that Abraham was...because he believed God. (Galations 3:6)

The rest of Noah's world did not believe God. Instead they turned away from God and became increasingly more wicked. (Romans 1:28)

If I had a gold star I'd give to you for this one. Amen
MB

 

[skypair]

That is a good question David. And once again, I am sticking my neck out for my head to be chopped off. :laugh:
I did embrace Reformed Theology for awhile. I thought I had discovered something so exciting. I threw myself into it and began to study lots of reformed or Calvinistic writings. But the more I studied, the more I found it just didn't line up with the teachings of the Bible.
It has been an exciting, frustrating and enlightening few months. I am glad that I went on this journey because I believe that I have found the truth. I know that you and my other reformed friends will be sad and disappointed in me. But this is what I believe God has led me to.
I love you all and hope that you will still love me. :saint:

Yet there will be those who affirm your spirit as well, Amy. :jesus:

Believing Calvinism is like believing that Christ is married to the "Stepford wives." They're all pre-programmed to do exactly what God "elected" them to do. Think of how glorious that is to Christ! Almost "takes your breath away" the worship offered irresistibly by ROBOTS, eh?

Love? As Dave Hunt points out, "What Love Is This?" It is a "one sided" tranasaction! It's like the joke we all laugh about. When the wife asks, "Do you love me?" Calvinism's Christ answers, "Hey, I married you didn't I?" :tear:

I know -- I'm painting "caricatures" again. "Exaggerating the truth for effect." Trying to make them see what compares with their theology. I hope they will try to caricature MY theology so that I may answer their view as well.

skypair

 

[Amy.G]

Hi David;
You'd have a hard time of proving anyone is His before they are. No one is a sheep of Christ until they are saved. The problem with particular redemption is that God is not a respecter of men and a particular election would make Him one.
Particular election means the Father can't save certain ones and that isn't true. It tramples on the Sovereignty of God. It tells God He cannot save whom He may want to.
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
Jn10:15
Does say He layed down His life for the sheep which was Israel and the other sheep in verse 16 is the rest of the world. The fold He was speaking of was the Jews.
Verse 26 says if we don't believe we are not His sheep. No one has always believed. The man doesn't exist that has always been a sheep.
I do not disagree with Jn 6:37-39. Calvinist, assume they have been given before they have been.
Could you explain How no man can come to the Father except through Christ. I've been told that the Holy Spirit is who saves through regeneration before belief in Christ.
MB

Agreed. The sheep Jesus was speaking about was Israel, but not all of them. The sheep were the Jews who had believed the OT prophecies of the coming Messiah and who also were faithful to God. (They will all be taught of God) So, when their Messiah came, they knew His "voice".
The "other sheep" that He would call were the Gentiles. He would call them by being lifted up between heaven and earth as a propitiation for all men. (crucified)

 

[Plain Old Bill]

commentary on acts16:31

 

[skypair]

Sounds almost identical to my journey through the TULIP garden

Believe it or not -- I been there too! There ARE some passages that demand serious reflection/meditation. There a certain concepts that, on their face, sound right.

"Original sin," for instance. It's a great way to make God responsible for my status as a sinner and my automatic reprobation as God's "just" decision and my "fate" if I am predestined to reprobation.

NO! The facts are that I sinned and came short of the righteousness of God. And I MUST do something about that! God has done all that He can on my behalf at the cross. It's up to me now.

For those who do not believe this, I doubt if they belong on this BAPTIST board. If you did not affirm your responsibility for sin, die to self, and covenant with God through His Son, you're in the wrong place IMO.

skypair

 

[skypair]

I however do not feel it is right. I see it as a story of salvation based on the full context. It goes hand in hand with the Parable of the Lost Sheep and the Parable of the Lost Coin which is found just before the parable of the Lost Son.

Indeed it does. And the ALL are about BELIEVERS who are brought back from backsliding -- first by Christ, second by the Holy Spirit, and, in the prodigal son, by the Father!! Does Christ leave 100 "goats" to find the one lost sheep? Does the Holy Spirit help the harlot find the one silver coin of her "proof of marriage?" Is the prodigal as son or a bastard? Go get your parables worked out and then come back and teach us.

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

You are misapplying the ark analogy. Noah and his family were already God's. God kept His own safe. Noah was righteos...by grace through faith.

God did keep his own. He also picked them. He also saved them from damnation. right?

Or do you believe Noah just misunderstood God when said...
But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

Now Noah find grace because he was good? (works)
or
Was Noah good because of what was given by the Lord? (grace)

 

[Jarthur001]

OK, so YOU are not included either. Is that what you mean? And Noah, Abel, Adam -- they weren't "Israelis." They aren't included either, right?

skypair

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise........

.....So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

 

[Jarthur001]

The ark wasn't made to hold the whole world, but if the whole had come, the ark wouldn't have been needed.

And what if 5000 came?

Noah was declared righteous for the same reason that Abraham was...because he believed God. (Galations 3:6)

We were talking about the atonement, and if it is limited. Now we have moved into all of justification. I hope we get back to the atonement and if it is limited or not.

But being that we are where...lets talk

If we move into full justification we must address the all of it not just part.

Why was the grace given to Noah?

Noah is 1st said to have found grace in the eyes of God. Then he is righteous. Or do you believe Noah was right or good and this brought the eyes of God toward him..in other words Noah was good and stood out among others because he was good, so God choose him because he was good.

This is election of Noah. Was this based on grace or works?

You also asked about Abraham. You posted he was made right, because he believed. All are made right just as he was. But what brought Abraham to the point he even knew about God?

Why was Abraham choosen? Good works? God came to Abraham. why?

The rest of Noah's world did not believe God.

No one came...and God knew only those he chose would come.

Lets say there was a man name Joe Chin that lived about 200 miles from Noah. Could God have talked with Joe from heaven? Could God have saw fit to move on the heart of Joe and ask him to build another ark just as God did Noah? I'm sure you will say yes.

Did God? No.

Why?


The Bible says ALL of mankind was evil Noah was part of mankind. But Noah found grace. Why?

Instead they turned away from God and became increasingly more wicked. (Romans 1:28)

Is that not the T in TULIP?