Limited Atonement

[RAdam]

A type isn't the very image. Hebrews talks about the day of atonement being a type and a shadow of what Christ would do. The scriptures say there that the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image. Notice that, not the very image. Joseph was a type of Christ, but that doesn't he was like Christ in every way. Moses was a type of Christ, but that doesn't mean he was like Christ in every way. Israel is a type of the elect, but that doesn't mean Israel was like the elect in every way. How are they a type of the elect? Well, like the elect, God chose them out of the world to be the objects of special blessings.

Before Fuller came along the Baptist didn't differentiate between the extent of the atonement and the persons to whom the atonement would be applied. That's something Fuller introduced and now you see the effects of that false theology.

 

[webdog]

A type isn't the very image. Hebrews talks about the day of atonement being a type and a shadow of what Christ would do. The scriptures say there that the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image. Notice that, not the very image. Joseph was a type of Christ, but that doesn't he was like Christ in every way. Moses was a type of Christ, but that doesn't mean he was like Christ in every way. Israel is a type of the elect, but that doesn't mean Israel was like the elect in every way. How are they a type of the elect? Well, like the elect, God chose them out of the world to be the objects of special blessings.

Before Fuller came along the Baptist didn't differentiate between the extent of the atonement and the persons to whom the atonement would be applied. That's something Fuller introduced and now you see the effects of that false theology.

The "type" or foreshadowing was the true High Priest (Christ) atoning for the sin of believer and unbelievers alike, since Israel was made up of both.

 

[RAdam]

So when the Jewish high priest had to make atonement for his sins also, was that a foreshadowing of Christ having to atone for His own sins? Of course not. Again, you see that a type is not the very image. When the high priest atoned in a figure for the sins of Israel, Israel was a figure of something else.

In Hebrews 2:17 it says this, "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for hte sins of the people." What people? Well the context isn't talking about every single member of mankind, but rather the many sons brought to glory, the brethren of Jesus, they who are sanctified, the children which God had given Him. That is what is under consideration. Christ made reconciliation, not for all of humanity universally, but rather for them that are sanctified. Hebrews 10 says by one offering He hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.

Now, speaking of Leviticus 16, the high priest would confess the sins of Israel over the head of the live goat (the scapegoat) and then a fit man would take it into a land not inhabited, literally a land of separation. This pictures Jesus totally separating our sins from us. If Jesus totally separated our sins from us by His offering, then those whom He made that offering for aren't going to suffer eternal punishment for those sins.

 

[BobRyan]

John sets his own context.

John 1:10 - Jesus made the world
John 1:9 - Jesus is the light of the world and "enlightens everyone of mankind".
John 1 "He came to his own and his own received him not"

John tells us from the start of the global all-inclusive nature of Christ's work as creator and as Savior AND he tells us that Christ performed saving ministry for those who still chose to say "no". So in their being lost they cannot blame it on "well Christ did not die for me" or "Christ did not reach out to me" or "I was not able to accept salvation"... as if this is God's fault that they still chose to be lost.

in Christ,

Bob

John 12:19 - "The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how he prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him."

Did every single person on the globe without exception go after Christ?

In the example you gave it is the view of the Pharisees -- that limits the their own use of the term "world" -- but in John 1 it is not the Pharisees speaking - it is God who declares that Christ made the World and then enter the world as the light of the world -- that enlightens "every man".

That scope and context is as broad as it can possibly be.

Not too surprising then that John also says in 1John 4 that God sent Him into the world to be the "Savior of the World"

John 1:3 says, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." Again, scripture says all here means all universally without exception. I ask again, why the need for this if we are to assume that is what all means anyhow?

Well it is interesting that we appeaer to agree on the massive all-inclusive scope for the term in John chapter 1.

In 1John 2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the whole WORLD" --goes nicely with that John 1 idea of "The light of the world" that coming into the world enlightens everyone of mankind.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The "type" or foreshadowing was the true High Priest (Christ) atoning for the sin of believer and unbelievers alike, since Israel was made up of both.

True and in Lev 16 we have the ultimate atonement model.

Notice that the full Bible concept of Atonement is not limited to the sacrifice at the cross (the slaying of the Lord's goat). It is not limited to the work of Christ as the "Lamb of God" seen in Lev 16 -- but it also includes the ongoing work of Christ in Lev 16 as "High Priest" officiating the benefits of that blood sacrifice - just as Paul points out in Heb 8 and 9 - Christ is now doing for us as our High Priest.

Thus while the Atoning Sacrifice (1John 2:2 NIV) is expansive and covers ALL - without exception -- yet the complete Bible concept of "Atonement" also includes the work of Christ as our High Priest (Heb 8-9) in which Christ is the source of salvation to "everyone that comes to Him".

"Come unto Me and I will give you rest" says Christ.

Whosover will may come -- but many still choose not to come -- and so for them the benefits of the unlimited atoning sacrifice - cannot be applied to their sins -- though it does serve to extend the gospel to them - by their own refusal -- it stops right there.

One who reads this carefully could then respond that I in fact DO believe in "limited atonement" -- not limited at all at the cross - but in the FULL Bible concept of the "Atonement" where we must include the sinner's experience with the High Priest officiating Christ's own blood on our behalf -- then those who refuse the Gospel are by that act - refusing to have complete atonement applied, and thus are not covered at all by the blood sacrifice so graciously supplied FOR them. Thus in the largest sense as the "Son of Man" He came to "His OWN and His OWN received Him not" in the case of those who refuse the Gospel

in Christ,

Bob

 

[RAdam]

So basically when Christ said "It is finished" He didn't really mean it. When Hebrews said that "he hath by one offering perfected forever them that are sanctified" the scriptures didn't really mean it. That's essentially what you are saying.

While it is true that Christ's work as high priest didn't end at the cross, His atoning work did. The atonement was finished with that one sacrifice. His mediatorial work, however, will not end until the end of time and the resurrection. One needs to understand the difference between the two.

As far as the whoever comes to Christ, the bible tells us that the only ones that will come to Christ are those drawn by the Father.

As far as the refusing of the gospel goes, the problem with your idea is that not all have heard the gospel. What do you do with them?

 

[RAdam]

Question: Is Christ the eternal savior of the world (your definition that world always should be taken universally)? I mean, the bible says He is the savior of the world. A savior saves. Has Jesus saved everyone in existence to heaven?

 

[webdog]

Question: Is Christ the eternal savior of the world (your definition that world always should be taken universally)? I mean, the bible says He is the savior of the world. A savior saves. Has Jesus saved everyone in existence to heaven?

the world is sinful mankind.

 

[BobRyan]

So basically when Christ said "It is finished" He didn't really mean it. When Hebrews said that "he hath by one offering perfected forever them that are sanctified" the scriptures didn't really mean it. That's essentially what you are saying.

While it is true that Christ's work as high priest didn't end at the cross, His atoning work did. The atonement was finished with that one sacrifice.

Correction.

1. The "Atoning Sacrifice" (NIV 1John 2:2) was finished "once for all" at the cross by His once for all sacrifice for sins. An "Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2.

2. In God's own definition of "Atonement" given in Lev 16 "Day of Atonement" - it does not "end" when the sin offering is "slain" -- but rather it continues with the work of High Priest until the entire "process" is ended - the full meaning of "Atonement" is not yet complete. No sense in arguing with the text at that point.

3. In Heb 7 and 8 Christ is seen to take up that role as our High Priest at His ascension into heaven.

In Heb 9 He is seen doing the work as our High Priest in heaven's sanctuary.

In 1John 2:1 "we have an advocate with the Father" if we sin.
In 1John 1:9 - our advocate not only provides forgiveness of sins but also "cleansing".

4. With the ongoing work of Christ "included" in the broader Biblical concept of atonement (instead of just limiting the meaning to "Atoning Sacrifice" which all agree was completed at the cross) - we see how it is that the sacrifiice can be "NOT for OUR sins only but for the sins of the whole world" AND YET the whole world is not saved.

As far as the whoever comes to Christ, the bible tells us that the only ones that will come to Christ are those drawn by the Father.

John 12:32 "I will draw ALL unto Me" the term is unqualified -- it is the unqualifiied ALL that are drawn.

John 16 He "convicts the WORLD of sin and rightousness and judgment".

John 1 "He is the light of the world and coming into the world He enlightens every one of mankind".

2Peter 3 "He is not willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance".

As far as the refusing of the gospel goes, the problem with your idea is that not all have heard the gospel. What do you do with them?

He enlightens EVERY man.
He draws ALL unto Him.

Romans 2 -- for even the gentiles who do NOT have scripture are a law unto themselves -- showing that they have the New Covenant promise of the Law written on the heart.

Romans 10 asks the very question "surely they have never heard have they?" And then Paul makes the case from Psalms "indeed they have" - for nature itself (from the psalms) speaks of the God of creation.

Paul says in Romans 1 that even barbarians can see the "invisible attributes of God clearly seen in the things that have been made".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Question: Is Christ the eternal savior of the world (your definition that world always should be taken universally)? I mean, the bible says He is the savior of the world. A savior saves. Has Jesus saved everyone in existence to heaven?

God says Christ is the Savior of the world in 1John 4.

I believe it.

God says that his "good news" (Gospel) is based on the "atonement" model of Lev 16 -- not on the grocery store model that many have imagined.

In the grocery store model - if someone pays for everybody's groceries -- then that is the "end of the story". Everyone goes home and enjoys their groceries as they please.

Instead of that model - God uses the Atonement solution described in Lev 16 that requires BOTH the "lamb slain" AND the work of Christ as High Priest interceding for each individual -- drawing "ALL" unto Him.

And "Whosoever will" may come and take of the water of life freely.

John 1 "but men loved darkness more than light"

John 1 "he came to HIS OWN but HIS OWN received him not"

Romans 2:5-16 spells this out concisely.

in Christ,

Bob