Limited free will

[Rippon]

Exactly. Paul does not say "There is none that is ABLE to do good, no, not one".

I don't get your distinction. No ones does good --period.

men were not originally filthy, but clean, and have "become" filthy.

Our first parents were clean and upright --perfect,initially. But since the Fall all have sought out their own devices to use KJV-speak.

Psalm 14 is rather emphatic Winman. All have turned away from God.All are corrupt. No one does good. Not even one!

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;

Does any piece of clothing start out as a dirty rag? NO, all clothing starts out clean and whole.

You cite Scripture which undermines your interpretation. Our best deeds are like filthy rags. Take the Bible as it states it Winman. It doesn't mention anything about a process. It's just plain stinking dirty.

I do not believe that babies are sinners

The Bible is against you. From the womb they speak lies.

Jesus said evil men "know how" to give good things to their children, so men have the ability to do good.

Evil men know how to give good gifts to their children does not negate the fact that they are indeed evil men.

Exactly, when the scriptures say there is none good, no, not one, it is not saying that everything a man does is evil. It is not saying man is unable to do good. What it is saying is that no man is PERFECT.

I got a chuckle out of that one. "No man is perfect" --really Winman?That's your deep theological truth device at work? That's just a mere tautology. The Lord looks down from Heaven on the whole human race --says that all have turned away from God --they are all corrupt --no one does good --not even one.And you, in your superior understanding of Holy Writ declare,"It just means that nobody's perfect!" You're a hoot! I can't wait for your theology to come out in systematic form!

Just because the scriptures say no man seeks God does not necessarily mean he is unable to seek God.

"No one" is rather absolute Winman. Let's be clear about that.

 

[The Biblicist]

No one is saying the Gentiles were not sinners, Paul clearly teaches that all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Nevertheless, Paul said the Gentiles by nature do the things contained in the the law which shows the law written on their hearts.

Yes, they respond to the limited faculty of conscience which approves and disapproves but even what the conscience APPROVES does not mean it is "good" in God's sight only in the sight of a limited conscience. But even conscience is violated by the Gentile proving they are not "GOOD" in God's sight as defined by not merely the written Law but their own conscience.

You are attempting to take those actions approved by conscience and claim that makes them capable of doing "good" before God when that is clearly not the case as Paul concludes in Romans 3:9-13.

As even you admitted you can go into the darkest jungles of Africa and you will find a DISTORTED but working conscience. They may not kill and murdre their own families but they will the families of another tribe. Their conscience does not approve killing their own family, but even they violate that whereas it will approve of killing others and God's law does not approve of that. So the inferior conscience provides sufficient evidence to prove they are sinners but never proves they are good or righteous.

 

[Winman]

I don't get your distinction. No ones does good --period.

Just because no man does good or seeks God does not necessarily mean he is unable to do good or seek God, you are reading that into scripture.

There are many things I have never done that I am able to do. I have never driven my car down the sidewalk and run over innocent pedestrians, but I am quite able to do so.

Our first parents were clean and upright --perfect,initially. But since the Fall all have sought out their own devices to use KJV-speak.

False.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

The word "they" is plural and points back to the word "man" showing this is speaking of all men, not just Adam.

Psalm 14 is rather emphatic Winman. All have turned away from God.All are corrupt. No one does good. Not even one!

The word "corrupt" by definition means to go from a good state to a bad state, look it up in any dictionary. You must first be good to become corrupt.

You cite Scripture which undermines your interpretation. Our best deeds are like filthy rags. Take the Bible as it states it Winman. It doesn't mention anything about a process. It's just plain stinking dirty.

No piece of clothing starts out filthy or torn, all clothing is originally clean and whole. No leaf starts out withered and dead, all leaves start out green, tender, and alive.

You are not thinking things out, you are allowing others to condition your thinking. The scriptures say we have 'become" filthy. The word "become" describes a process.

Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

This is perfectly describing corruption, we were not originally filthy, but we have "become" filthy. We have gone from good to bad.

The Bible is against you. From the womb they speak lies.

First of all, no newborn baby can speak any language, so it must be understood this Psalm is hyperbole and should not be used to form doctrine.

Second, all babies when they speak speak the language of their parents. No baby born to English speaking parents speaks French or Spanish. They learn their language from those around them, and this is where they also learn to lie, by hearing others lie.

Evil men know how to give good gifts to their children does not negate the fact that they are indeed evil men.

I agree 100%. But being evil does not mean they are unable to do good. It is not evil to tell the truth. It is not evil to be faithful to your wife. It is not evil to return a lost wallet. Unregenerate men do good things ALL the time.

When the scriptures say there is none good, it is not saying that men are unable to do good, it is saying that no man is PERFECT. For all men have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

I got a chuckle out of that one. "No man is perfect" --really Winman?That's your deep theological truth device at work? That's just a mere tautology. The Lord looks down from Heaven on the whole human race --says that all have turned away from God --they are all corrupt --no one does good --not even one.And you, in your superior understanding of Holy Writ declare,"It just means that nobody's perfect!" You're a hoot! I can't wait for your theology to come out in systematic form!

"No one" is rather absolute Winman. Let's be clear about that.

No one except Jesus has ever been perfect or just. That is exactly what Solomon taught.

Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Solomon is not saying men never do ANY good, he is saying that no man is ALWAYS good here.

Jesus said evil men KNOW HOW to give good gifts to their children. This shows unregenerate men have the ABILITY to do good.

Total Inability is utterly false doctrine.

 

[Luke2427]

I think perhaps you are misinterpreting scripture.

If your view is correct, it makes more sense to be a thief and steal than it does to be honest, because in your view being honest is just as sinful as stealing.

No its not.

Everything the unconverted man does is sin against God. But sinning against his fellow man and God at the same time is even worse. He's committing vertical AND horizontal sin at the same time when he steals from his fellow man.

Sorry, I am not naive enough to believe such nonsense.

Winman, you are KJVO for heaven's sake. Anybody who could believe that ignorance is stupid to believe anything. You might as well be a snake handler.

 

[Winman]

No its not.

Everything the unconverted man does is sin against God. But sinning against his fellow man and God at the same time is even worse. He's committing vertical AND horizontal sin at the same time when he steals from his fellow man.

Baloney, it is not a sin for any man to tell the truth. It is not sin to be honest and return a lost wallet. It is not sin to be faithful to your wife.

If your view is correct, there is no such thing as good. When Jesus told the truth it would have been evil, when he healed the lame and sick it would have been evil. In your view EVERYTHING is evil.

You simply do not see how twisted and plain stupid this false doctrine you have swallowed is. It is nonsensical. It turns good into evil.

Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Winman, you are KJVO for heaven's sake. Anybody who could believe that ignorance is stupid to believe anything. You might as well be a snake handler.

Yes, I happen to believe God's promise that he would preserve his words to all generations (Psa 12:6-7).

That has nothing to do with Total Inability. Jesus himself said sinners do good.

Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

Jesus didn't talk about "horizontal" good here, he simply said that sinners also do good.

As for being a "snake handler", it is you that believes telling the truth is a sin. Wow.

 

[Luke2427]

Baloney, it is not a sin for any man to tell the truth. It is not sin to be honest and return a lost wallet. It is not sin to be faithful to your wife.

Every breath taken by an unrepentant man is sin.

Every step he takes as a man unyielded to the Lordship of Jesus Christ is treason in the courts of heaven.

All things that every creature made in God's does ought to be done for the glory of God.

If it is not, no matter how noble in the eyes of morally blind fools- it is SIN!!

 

[Winman]

Every breath taken by an unrepentant man is sin.

Every step he takes as a man unyielded to the Lordship of Jesus Christ is treason in the courts of heaven.

All things that every creature made in God's does ought to be done for the glory of God.

If it is not, no matter how noble in the eyes of morally blind fools- it is SIN!!

Would you care to show the scripture that supports this?

 

[Luke2427]

Would you care to show the scripture that supports this?

People have been giving you Scriptures about this for years.

 

[Winman]

People have been giving you Scriptures about this for years.

Right. I'm sure everyone reading will buy this lame excuse. :laugh:

 

[Rippon]

Would you care to show the scripture that supports this?

How about this from your beloved KJV?

"An high look and a proud heart,and the plowing of the wicked,is sin."

I hope you don't mind that I updated just one word,do you?

Basically all the acts of the unregenerate are evil and sinful --even things on the horizontal plane we think of as good in and of themselves. But,and this is significant, but God, (don't you appreciate that phrase? But God) considers all acts that people do as evil because they do not do their deeds for the glory or love for God --therefore their actions are evil. You see God has a higher regard for what constitutes sin than you do.

 

[Winman]

How about this from your beloved KJV?

"An high look and a proud heart,and the plowing of the wicked,is sin."

I hope you don't mind that I updated just one word,do you?

Basically all the acts of the unregenerate are evil and sinful --even things on the horizontal plane we think of as good in and of themselves. But,and this is significant, but God, (don't you appreciate that phrase? But God) considers all acts that people do as evil because they do not do their deeds for the glory or love for God --therefore their actions are evil. You see God has a higher regard for what constitutes sin than you do.

That's it? That's your proof that EVERYTHING men do is evil? I don't think so.

First, this verse is speaking of "the wicked". All a person has to do is read and you will see the Proverbs and Psalms especially speak of two types of persons, "the wicked" and "the righteous". So, not all men are "the wicked".

Pro 21:21 He that followeth after righteousness and mercy findeth life, righteousness, and honour.

The same author in the same chapter speaks of men who follow after righteousness. It says he "findeth life", so he is not regenerated when he first follows after righteousness, it is something he obtains later. Thus, unregenerate men can do and seek good.

Pro 21:15 It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

The same author, same chapter; Do all men love to do wickedness? NO, some men love to do what is good.

Pro 21:12 The righteous man wisely considereth the house of the wicked: but God overthroweth the wicked for their wickedness.

Same author, same chapter; The righteous man observes that God overthrows the wicked.

So, this verse (vs.4) you submitted is speaking of especially wicked persons only. Yes, pretty much everything they do is designed with wickedness in mind, but this is not describing all men, the scriptures themselves make a very clear distinction between good and evil men.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't get your distinction. No ones does good --period.

Our first parents were clean and upright --perfect,initially. But since the Fall all have sought out their own devices to use KJV-speak.

Psalm 14 is rather emphatic Winman. All have turned away from God.All are corrupt. No one does good. Not even one!

You cite Scripture which undermines your interpretation. Our best deeds are like filthy rags. Take the Bible as it states it Winman. It doesn't mention anything about a process. It's just plain stinking dirty.

The Bible is against you. From the womb they speak lies.

Evil men know how to give good gifts to their children does not negate the fact that they are indeed evil men.

I got a chuckle out of that one. "No man is perfect" --really Winman?That's your deep theological truth device at work? That's just a mere tautology. The Lord looks down from Heaven on the whole human race --says that all have turned away from God --they are all corrupt --no one does good --not even one.And you, in your superior understanding of Holy Writ declare,"It just means that nobody's perfect!" You're a hoot! I can't wait for your theology to come out in systematic form!

"No one" is rather absolute Winman. Let's be clear about that.

All have sinned, all have a sinful nature - bent to evil "by nature".

The "heart is deceitfully wicked who can know it" says Jeremiah.

But that is a description of the sinful nature apart from the Gospel - apart from the work of God to save mankind.

By contrast - we live in a world where the Gospel does exist, Where the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD" John 16 and where Christ says "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32.

The result is that the GIANTS of faith listed in Heb 11 - come from the OT and include those who never died - such as Enoch.

The result is that Paul argues that WE should "follow HIS example" and that we should ourselves be "examples" to others, and that we should mark those who do not walk after the pattern that we have in the Apostles - in Paul.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Luke2427]

That's it? That's your proof that EVERYTHING men do is evil? I don't think so.

First, this verse is speaking of "the wicked". All a person has to do is read and you will see the Proverbs and Psalms especially speak of two types of persons, "the wicked" and "the righteous". So, not all men are "the wicked".

Yes, that's right. The wicked are the unregenerate, the righteous are the regenerate.

So everything that an unregenerate man does is sin.


Great. Glad you agree.

Pro 21:21 He that followeth after righteousness and mercy findeth life, righteousness, and honour.

The same author in the same chapter speaks of men who follow after righteousness. It says he "findeth life", so he is not regenerated when he first follows after righteousness, it is something he obtains later. Thus, unregenerate men can do and seek good.

Right, which is what God enables the elect to do. He causes them to follow after righteousness because they would never follow after it unless God caused them to do so.

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Pro 21:15 It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

The same author, same chapter; Do all men love to do wickedness? NO, some men love to do what is good.

That's right. The regenerate do not love wickedness all unregenerate people do. Glad you agree with what we are saying.