i did what God required me to do in order to be saved by Him...
Would that make it a work?
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Limited or Definite Atonement is the Gospel !
- Thread starter savedbymercy
- Start date
i did what God required me to do in order to be saved by Him...
Would that make it a work?
Jesus said there were no works that can get a person to heaven.
Making a play on words he made this statement:
John 6:28-29 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them,
This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
The only "work" or that which can be considered a work, Jesus said is to believe. Making a play on words Jesus said the only thing that a man can do is believe. IOW, everything else was a work, believing was not.
Does not matter who it is that you attribute it to, it is still salvation by works, or a gospel of works and that is not the gospel of the New Testament because the gospel of the new Testament is explicitly called the "gospel of grace" not a gospel of works (Gal. 1:6-7).
Furthermore, you still have a regenerated person in unbelief and thus seeing eyes that DO NOT SEE and hearing ears that DO NOT HEAR.
savedbymercy
New Member
the bib
It does matter, for the New Creation is already saved when he believes the Gospel, believing is merely an evidence of salvation like any other good work is. However, if you teach that the natural man believes, and as a result, he gets saved or becomes a New Creature because of that, that is works salvation, if you cannot tell the difference, it is because you are in darkness !
It does matter, for the New Creation is already saved when he believes the Gospel, believing is merely an evidence of salvation like any other good work is. However, if you teach that the natural man believes, and as a result, he gets saved or becomes a New Creature because of that, that is works salvation, if you cannot tell the difference, it is because you are in darkness !
Why can't you deal with the scriptures I repeatedly place in your face that prove what you say here is false?????? What scriptures you ask? John 6:64-65 that explicitly and clearly teach that faith is not of man but must be "given to him of the Father."
John 6:65 is provided as an EXPLANATION to why some of his PROFESSED disciples and Judas did not truly believe in him. John 6:64 says Jesus knew "FROM THE BEGINNING" who were not true believers among those professing to be his disciples. He knew "FROM THE BEGINNING" who they were and that is why Jesus said "NO MAN CAN come to me" meaning no man can come in saving faith to me - "EXCEPT IT WERE GIVEN HIM of my Father."
John 6:29 is not a play on words but a declaration by Christ to the very same effect as John 6:44 and John 6:65 - "THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD that ye believe on him." Faith is NOT A WORK OF MAN but a "WORK OF GOD" because it must be "GIVEN UNTO HIM OF MY FATHER."
Romans 4:3-6 completely repudiates your false doctrine and false gospel. In Romans 4:1-3 Paul clearly and explicitly states that Abraham was justified "before God" (v. 1) not by works whereof he could glory but by faith - that very contrasts destroys your argument that justifiying faith is of works:
1 ¶ What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Anyone capable of third grade English can see that verse 3 is an outright denial that Abraham was justified by works (v. 2) but was justified by faith - meaning faith is not of works or else Paul's CONTRASTING conclusion to works (v. 2) in verse 3 makes no sense at all.
If your false doctrine were correct verses 2-3 should read as follows:
"SINCE Abraham was justified by works, seeing that faith is a work, but Abraham does not have whereof to glory since faith is a work of the new man"
If that is not suffienct to show your are teaching an absolute false gospel, false definition of faith, false grace then verses 3-6 surely exposes your spiritual darkness to the light of truth:
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
In verse 4 Paul denies that works can be "reckoned" or "counted" as grace but must be "reckoned" or "counted" as works. Do you understand that? If faith is of works as you say, then it cannot be "counted" or "reckoned" to be of grace but must be counted or reckoned of "debt." All works are attempts to PAY a debt or EARN favor. However, anything "of grace" cannot be EARNED and thus cannot be "OF DEBT."
Now, Paul is explicitly denying that justification by faith is "of debt" and therefore is not OF WORKS just as he declared in verse 2 "If Abraham were justified BY WORKS he hath whereof to glory but NOT BEFORE GOD." Abraham was not justified by works but by faith and therefore faith is not of works as verses 5-6 proves by contrasting works to faith:
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works
Look at the last two words of verse 6 - "WITHOUT WORKS" and the first phrase of verse 5 "WORKETH NOT"! Paul makes these the contrast of imputed righteousness or justification BY FAITH proving justifying faith is not of works as he said in verses 2-3 and verse 4 and now in verses 5-6.
Last, he says the same thing in verse 16 "It is OF FAITH that it might be BY GRACE." However, your view would force this text to say "It is OF FAITH which is BY WORKS."
John 6:29, 44-45; 64-65 and Romans 4:1-6, 16 are a thorough repudiation of your false doctrine! I dare you to give any kind of rational exegetical based response to my exposition of these texts. I predicte you won't even attempt to do so because YOU CANNOT do so!
However, Ephesians 2:8-10 also proves that regeneration and faith are inseparable from each other and that faith is not "of works" but is contained in the new birth by God.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Paul uses a paraphrastic construction joining a perfect tense verb with a present tense to be or linking verb that translates "are ye saved." The implication is that this "saved" event took place in the past as a completed action at a past point in time and stands complete right up to the present. That is the implication of the perfect tense alone. The joining with it the to be verb emphaiszes the continuance of that perfect state.
Now, those who would debate the point of completed action, I simply reply that the contextual definition of "saved" is quickening (vv. 1, 5) as the term "saved" is first linked with "quickened" in verse 5 as explanatory of "saved." Hence, "saved" in verse 8 refers back to quickening in verse 5. Either a person is spiritual dead or alive. There is no progressive quickening! If you are dead, you are dead. If you are alive you are alive. Hence, quickening is a COMPLETED POINT OF ACTION where the dead become alive at a given point in time. This is the reason for the perfect tense.
However, this perfect state completed action in past time was an action that was completed "THROUGH FAITH" at the point of its completion. In other words "faith" is inseparable from the completed action of being "saved." No human being is "saved" as a COMPLETED ACTION apart from "faith" but this kind of "saved" (quickening/regeneation) is completed "THROUGH FAITH." It is not something that produces faith but something that is completed as an point of action "THROUGH" faith.
Hence, this is a grammatical demand that "saved" and "faith" are inseparable at the POINT OF COMPLETED ACTION.
Furthermore, "saved" in this context refers to being QUICKENED (vv. 1,5, 10).which by its very nature is not a progressive action as one is either alive or dead. Quickening is exclusively an act of God as no man can raise the dead to life.
Now, look at the logical flow of thought from verse 8 to verse 10.
1. Here is what happened - "SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH"
2. The Denial of what it is to be attributed to:
a. Cannot be attributed to self - "and that not of yourself"
b. Cannot be attributed to works - "not of works lest any man should boast"
3. Assertion to whom it can be attributed to:
a. "It is a gift of God"
b. "For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus"
4. Proof that "through faith" and "unto good works" are not synonomous
a. The action of saved/quickened cannot occur except "through faith"
b. Creation in Christ occurs prior to and thus without "good works"
Conclusion: There is no such thing as a unregenerated believer because faith cannot occur apart from and outside of regeneration. There is no such thing as a regenerated unbeliever because regeneration cannot occur apart from faith.
This is the same grammatical conclusion in 1 John 5:1 with the perfect tense verb "born" of God and the present tense participle "believeth."
Come on SBM deal with the contextual data in an honest and exegetically based fashion! I predict you will not do so because YOU CANNOT DO so without being exposed as a teacher of falsehood!
However,
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savedbymercy
New Member
the bib
Duh, when have I denied that ? Show us the quote where I deny that Faith is not given by God. I have affirmed that forever and a day !
In fact, I have a thread to that effect:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=75415
Duh, when have I denied that ? Show us the quote where I deny that Faith is not given by God. I have affirmed that forever and a day !
In fact, I have a thread to that effect:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=75415
This is your typical response. You jerk my statement out of its context and ignore the related evidence.
Deal with the context I placed it in! It is the "WORK OF GOD" (Jn. 6:29) and is "GIVEN" by God and is "OF GRACE" not of works and regeneration is "THROUGH" faith as proven by the grammar in Ephesians 2:8!
Deal with my overall argument! You are doing the typical cultic thing, avoiding the vast majority of evidence and jerking my words out of context.
1. I gave you contextual evidence that proves faith is not of works in Romans 4:2-6, 16 - NO RESPONSE
2. I gave you contextual and grammatical evidence that regeneration is "through faith" in Eph. 2:5,8-10 - NO RESPONSE
3. I gave you contextual evidence that faith is the work of God and is GIVEN to the elect in John 6:29,44-45-64-65 - NO RESPONSE
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Deal with the evidence above that faith is not of works but is of grace and regeneration is "through faith" or admit you are wrong!
savedbymercy
New Member
the bib
You have typical weak responses.
You have typical weak responses.
savedbymercy
New Member
dhk
The problem here is not what Jesus says at all, but what you believe and Teach, and that is, a person is saved because of their work, their act of belief. I have showed you that believing is a deed of the mind !
For something to be a deed or work it does not always have to occur physically, but it can occur mentally. When Jesus explained about adultery, most if not all understood it as a Physical Act Like here Jn 8:4
They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
However, Jesus in His discourse on the sermon of the mount had this to say about the deed of adultery Matt 5:28
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart or mind.
The deed done here is not a Physical act, but a mental one.
Believing is a deed of the mind or Heart. Now you teach contrary to scripture, that a person is saved by their act of belief in Christ or the Gospel, that is salvation by your works ! You can deny it all you want, but I will remind you of it !
And I do not need to exegete a whole passage to prove what I just proved !
The problem here is not what Jesus says at all, but what you believe and Teach, and that is, a person is saved because of their work, their act of belief. I have showed you that believing is a deed of the mind !
For something to be a deed or work it does not always have to occur physically, but it can occur mentally. When Jesus explained about adultery, most if not all understood it as a Physical Act Like here Jn 8:4
They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
However, Jesus in His discourse on the sermon of the mount had this to say about the deed of adultery Matt 5:28
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart or mind.
The deed done here is not a Physical act, but a mental one.
Believing is a deed of the mind or Heart. Now you teach contrary to scripture, that a person is saved by their act of belief in Christ or the Gospel, that is salvation by your works ! You can deny it all you want, but I will remind you of it !
And I do not need to exegete a whole passage to prove what I just proved !
Yeah:laugh: If my expositorial comments are "weak" then they must be much stronger than what you can handle, because you can't even respond to them with expository based comments.
You are a false teacher and the proof is that you run from expositorial based comments and exgetical based comments. All you can do is play jump and pit cultic hermeneutics.
savedbymercy
New Member
Your responses turn into straw men and rabbit trails and misrepresentations of what I said, thats about it !
No you haven't. Repeating something false doesn't make it true. It is just repetition of a false statement over and over again. Please don't think that your needless repetition of it will somehow convince me that it will be true. Faith is not a work.
And Stephen Hawking gets paid for his "thinking," but there is not a soul on earth that gets paid for their faith, for faith is not work. Hawking's work with his mind is work indeed. It is active. Faith is not work. It is passive. One receives Christ as Savior by faith.
You proved one of two things.
1. that you deny what the Bible teaches. Or,
2. that you believe in a religion of works (for you define faith as work, and salvation is by faith). You have only those two choices.
savedbymercy
New Member
dhk
Yes I have you reject it, but that is ok, believing remains a work !
Yes I have you reject it, but that is ok, believing remains a work !
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
According to the above passage you believe in salvation by works, which is not a Christian doctrine.
savedbymercy
New Member
I just quoted the Scripture. What you therefore are saying is this:
"The Apostle Paul publically denied that Christ's death saved anyone."
Why do you promote your own error over and above what the apostle says in Eph.2:8,9? That is quite shameful.
savedbymercy
New Member
dhk
You did quote it, but I see no evidence from your testimony that you believe it, for your testimony contradicts it, it states for by Grace are you saved through faith, NOT OF WORKS..but you turn right around and say that one must perform the work of believing to get saved !
You did quote it, but I see no evidence from your testimony that you believe it, for your testimony contradicts it, it states for by Grace are you saved through faith, NOT OF WORKS..but you turn right around and say that one must perform the work of believing to get saved !
Do you know the difference between redemption and "saved"? God purposed the redemption of the elect before the world began but that saved no one. God provided redemption in the Person and work of Christ but that saved no one. God applied the redemption to the elect in time and space and that saved them. You see "saved" is a past tense verb that has no meaning apart from actual application to the elect as its antonym in scripture is "LOST"
You were not "saved" before the world began. You were not "saved" at Calvary. If you are a "saved" person you were saved by grace "THROUGH FAITH" or you were not "saved" at all but you are still lost.
Romans 4:1-6 completely repudiates the idea that justifying faith is a "work." You have NEVER responded to the exgetical evidences I have provided that shows that Paul repudiated the idea that faith was a work. I will tell you why you are afraid to deal with the exegetical based defense that "faith" is "by grace" and of grace and not of works - Because YOU CANNOT!
You can? Here it is demonstrate you can! Show me where my exposition is not hermenetically or expositorily sound if you can?
Romans 4:3-6 completely repudiates your false doctrine and false gospel. In Romans 4:1-3 Paul clearly and explicitly states that Abraham was justified "before God" (v. 1) not by works whereof he could glory but by faith - that very contrasts destroys your argument that justifiying faith is of works:
1 ¶ What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Anyone capable of third grade English can see that verse 3 is an outright denial that Abraham was justified by works (v. 2) but was justified by faith - meaning faith is not of works or else Paul's CONTRASTING conclusion to works (v. 2) in verse 3 makes no sense at all.
If your false doctrine were correct verses 2-3 should read as follows:
"SINCE Abraham was justified by works, seeing that faith is a work, but Abraham does not have whereof to glory since faith is a work of the new man"
If that is not suffienct to show your are teaching an absolute false gospel, false definition of faith, false grace then verses 3-6 surely exposes your spiritual darkness to the light of truth:
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
In verse 4 Paul denies that works can be "reckoned" or "counted" as grace but must be "reckoned" or "counted" as works. Do you understand that? If faith is of works as you say, then it cannot be "counted" or "reckoned" to be of grace but must be counted or reckoned of "debt." All works are attempts to PAY a debt or EARN favor. However, anything "of grace" cannot be EARNED and thus cannot be "OF DEBT."
Now, Paul is explicitly denying that justification by faith is "of debt" and therefore is not OF WORKS just as he declared in verse 2 "If Abraham were justified BY WORKS he hath whereof to glory but NOT BEFORE GOD." Abraham was not justified by works but by faith and therefore faith is not of works as verses 5-6 proves by contrasting works to faith:
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works
Look at the last two words of verse 6 - "WITHOUT WORKS" and the first phrase of verse 5 "WORKETH NOT"! Paul makes these the contrast of imputed righteousness or justification BY FAITH proving justifying faith is not of works as he said in verses 2-3 and verse 4 and now in verses 5-6.
Last, he says the same thing in verse 16 "It is OF FAITH that it might be BY GRACE." However, your view would force this text to say "It is OF FAITH which is BY WORKS."
I think what is missing is the understanding of "and that not of yourselves." Yes, we are saved by grace through faith, and faith is not a work, but rather is contrasted with works. However, the bible is clear that "faith" is "not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast."
The idea that a person can have faith without the intervention of God in regeneration is anathema to the teachings of the bible.
I have asked the same question hundreds of times on this and the Fundamental forum and never received an answer. "If two people hear the exact same message and one gets saved but the other does not, what is the difference? Is one better than the other? Smarter? More spiritual. More submissive?" If salvation is not 100% of God then there is something in some people that is better than what is in other people to merit that salvation.
The idea that a person can have faith without the intervention of God in regeneration is anathema to the teachings of the bible.
I have asked the same question hundreds of times on this and the Fundamental forum and never received an answer. "If two people hear the exact same message and one gets saved but the other does not, what is the difference? Is one better than the other? Smarter? More spiritual. More submissive?" If salvation is not 100% of God then there is something in some people that is better than what is in other people to merit that salvation.