jesus death provided the basis to allow God to save peoples in both OT/NT, its just BOTh Covenants required faith!
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Limited or Definite Atonement is the Gospel !
- Thread starter savedbymercy
- Start date
jesus death provided the basis to allow God to save peoples in both OT/NT, its just BOTh Covenants required faith!
savedbymercy
New Member
jesus death provided the basis to allow God to save peoples in both OT/NT, its just BOTh Covenants required faith!
Thats more false preaching, Christ's Blood alone was the only basis of Justification before God for anyone.
To say that Faith is a requirement for Justification before God, is preaching salvation by works !
Thats more false preaching, Christ's Blood alone was the only basis of Justification before God for anyone.
To say that Faith is a requirement for Justification before God, is preaching salvation by works !
God cannot save any apart from the work of Christ, but None will be saved without faith placed in jesus either!
savedbymercy
New Member
yesh
Thats what saves alone ! You deny that !
God cannot save any apart from the work of Christ,
Thats what saves alone ! You deny that !
yesh
Thats what saves alone ! You deny that !
unless they believe in jesus as being the messiah, they will die in their sins and face eternal seperation from God!
savedbymercy
New Member
unless they believe in jesus as being the messiah, they will die in their sins and face eternal seperation from God!
Thats works, No one Jesus died for shall die in their sins, neither will anyone He died for remain in belief. Everyone Christ died for, they do receive a New Birth because of His Resurrection 1 Pet 1:3
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a living hope/faith by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
savedbymercy
New Member
Going back to 1 Cor 15:3
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received: how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
This People that Christ died for in Paul's Gospel, is according to the scriptures, the scriptures during his time would have been simply the Old Testament.
So, what does scripture in the OT say about those Christ was going to died for ? Does the OT scriptures ever say that Christ was going to die for the sins of everyone in the world without exception ? No it does not, but always a particular People is in view.
By First OT analogy, lets take the Day of Atonement, for this was a Type of Christ's Death and for whom it would be for.
It was for God's Chosen People Israel, and that's it. Lets look at Lev 16:15-22
15Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people, and bring his blood within the veil, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat and before the mercy seat.
16And he shall make an atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel and because of their transgressions in all their sins; and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
17And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the Holy Place until he come out, and has made an atonement for himself and for his household and for all the congregation of Israel.
18And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD and make an atonement for it, and shall take of the blood of the bullock and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.
19And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
20"And when he hath made an end of reconciling the Holy Place and the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar, he shall bring the live goat.
21And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness.
22And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited; and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
We learn also from the Tabernacle that when the Hight Priest [ A type of Christ] would go into the Most Holy Place, that He wore a Breast plate Ex 28:21-29
21And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.
22And thou shalt make upon the breastplate chains at the ends, of wreathed work of pure gold.
23And thou shalt make upon the breastplate two rings of gold, and shalt put the two rings on the two ends of the breastplate.
24And thou shalt put the two wreathed chains of gold in the two rings which are on the ends of the breastplate.
25And the other two ends of the two wreathed chains thou shalt fasten in the two clasps, and put them on the shoulder pieces of the ephod at the front of it.
26And thou shalt make two rings of gold, and thou shalt put them upon the two ends of the breastplate in the border thereof, which is on the inner side of the ephod.
27And two other rings of gold thou shalt make, and shalt put them on the two sides of the ephod underneath, toward the forepart thereof, over against the other coupling thereof, above the embroidered girdle of the ephod.
28And they shall bind the breastplate by the rings thereof unto the rings of the ephod with a lace of blue, that it may be above the embroidered girdle of the ephod, and that the breastplate be not loosed from the ephod.
29And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel on the breastplate of judgment upon his heart when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the LORD continually. Ex 28:30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim, and they shall be upon Aaron's heart when he goeth in before the LORD; and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually.
The writer of Hebrews states that God Preached the Gospel to Israel by means of these Typological Offerings and Offices of that People Heb 4:1-2
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left to us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the Gospel preached, as well as unto them; but the Word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
Yes, the very Gospel of 1 Cor 15:3-4 And so Our Sins is Limited to a particular Chosen People ! In fact, the Children of Israel are called the Church in the wilderness Acts 7:38
This is he, who in the church in the wilderness was with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers--the one who received the living oracles to give unto us,
Folks Christ died for the Church Eph 5:25, that is what Paul Preached !
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received: how that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
This People that Christ died for in Paul's Gospel, is according to the scriptures, the scriptures during his time would have been simply the Old Testament.
So, what does scripture in the OT say about those Christ was going to died for ? Does the OT scriptures ever say that Christ was going to die for the sins of everyone in the world without exception ? No it does not, but always a particular People is in view.
By First OT analogy, lets take the Day of Atonement, for this was a Type of Christ's Death and for whom it would be for.
It was for God's Chosen People Israel, and that's it. Lets look at Lev 16:15-22
15Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people, and bring his blood within the veil, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat and before the mercy seat.
16And he shall make an atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel and because of their transgressions in all their sins; and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
17And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the Holy Place until he come out, and has made an atonement for himself and for his household and for all the congregation of Israel.
18And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD and make an atonement for it, and shall take of the blood of the bullock and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about.
19And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
20"And when he hath made an end of reconciling the Holy Place and the tabernacle of the congregation and the altar, he shall bring the live goat.
21And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness.
22And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited; and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.
We learn also from the Tabernacle that when the Hight Priest [ A type of Christ] would go into the Most Holy Place, that He wore a Breast plate Ex 28:21-29
21And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes.
22And thou shalt make upon the breastplate chains at the ends, of wreathed work of pure gold.
23And thou shalt make upon the breastplate two rings of gold, and shalt put the two rings on the two ends of the breastplate.
24And thou shalt put the two wreathed chains of gold in the two rings which are on the ends of the breastplate.
25And the other two ends of the two wreathed chains thou shalt fasten in the two clasps, and put them on the shoulder pieces of the ephod at the front of it.
26And thou shalt make two rings of gold, and thou shalt put them upon the two ends of the breastplate in the border thereof, which is on the inner side of the ephod.
27And two other rings of gold thou shalt make, and shalt put them on the two sides of the ephod underneath, toward the forepart thereof, over against the other coupling thereof, above the embroidered girdle of the ephod.
28And they shall bind the breastplate by the rings thereof unto the rings of the ephod with a lace of blue, that it may be above the embroidered girdle of the ephod, and that the breastplate be not loosed from the ephod.
29And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel on the breastplate of judgment upon his heart when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the LORD continually. Ex 28:30 And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim, and they shall be upon Aaron's heart when he goeth in before the LORD; and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually.
The writer of Hebrews states that God Preached the Gospel to Israel by means of these Typological Offerings and Offices of that People Heb 4:1-2
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left to us of entering into His rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the Gospel preached, as well as unto them; but the Word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
Yes, the very Gospel of 1 Cor 15:3-4 And so Our Sins is Limited to a particular Chosen People ! In fact, the Children of Israel are called the Church in the wilderness Acts 7:38
This is he, who in the church in the wilderness was with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our fathers--the one who received the living oracles to give unto us,
Folks Christ died for the Church Eph 5:25, that is what Paul Preached !
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.yesh
What you mean, explain yourself. I know so far you have failed to disprove anything I have posted regarding who Christ died for, and who are the People in Matt 1:21 whom He promised to save from their sins. It is His Body the Church ! Now if you can me wrong from scripture, then do it !
"His people"
It doesn't say "the church," only "his people." You are simply reading your interpretation into the verse. In fact there was no church until after Pentecost. Did all who believe in Jesus before that time remain unsaved?
savedbymercy
New Member
Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
"His people"
It doesn't say "the church," only "his people." You are simply reading your interpretation into the verse. In fact there was no church until after Pentecost. Did all who believe in Jesus before that time remain unsaved?
Matt 1:21, Jesus People is His Church ! His Body whom He gave Himself for Eph 5:25
Thats works, No one Jesus died for shall die in their sins, neither will anyone He died for remain in belief. Everyone Christ died for, they do receive a New Birth because of His Resurrection 1 Pet 1:3
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a living hope/faith by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
God has ordained that its by faith alone/grace alone He has chosen to save sinners, so NO faith in jesus, no way to have God redeem us!
To a calvinist it makes perfect sense, as he will supply to his elect the needed gift of faith to meet that requirement...
To non cals, God still grants us either common grcae, or Gospel message as a means to have that needed faith to get saved...
ALL see faith as being required, why not you?
Last edited by a moderator:
savedbymercy
New Member
yesh
You deny Christ and teach salvation by works !
ALL see faith as being required, why not you?
You deny Christ and teach salvation by works !
Your interpretation. You are reading into Scripture something that is not there. It is a convenient thing to do when you have a pre-determined theology that is not Biblical. But you are wrong.Matt 1:21, Jesus People is His Church ! His Body whom He gave Himself for Eph 5:25
yesh
You deny Christ and teach salvation by works !
We can list God.jesus.Apostles that support what we teaxch, do you have ANY other that hold to one can be saved apart from placing faith in jesus?
per the Bible, all must be proved by testimony of 2-3 witnesses, in order to be proven!
Do you have any witness to bring other than yourself?
savedbymercy
New Member
We can list God.jesus.Apostles that support what we teaxch, do you have ANY other that hold to one can be saved apart from placing faith in jesus?
per the Bible, all must be proved by testimony of 2-3 witnesses, in order to be proven!
Do you have any witness to bring other than yourself?
You are nothing like God's Apostles, you preach a Salvation by works, and you deny that Christ's Death saved anyone. You teach that man saves himself by placing his faith in somehing !
You are nothing like God's Apostles, you preach a Salvation by works, and you deny that Christ's Death saved anyone. You teach that man saves himself by placing his faith in somehing !
We teach as the Apostles, that the death of Jesus provodes God basis/means to be able to freely forgive sinners, but that they MUST still believe in him in order to receive its benefits!
savedbymercy
New Member
We teach as the Apostles, that the death of Jesus provodes God basis/means to be able to freely forgive sinners, but that they MUST still believe in him in order to receive its benefits!
You do not teach like the Apostles of Christ, you teach salvation by works, by what a man does. In fact, you deny that Christ's Cross saves alone !
The cross of Christ can only save if it is accepted by faith. Otherwise Paul says "to them that perish it is foolishness." If you haven't accepted the work of Christ on the cross by faith, then perhaps it is just foolishness to you." An intellectual knowledge of these things is not good enough for God.You do not teach like the Apostles of Christ, you teach salvation by works, by what a man does. In fact, you deny that Christ's Cross saves alone !
savedbymercy
New Member
dhk
Thats Blasphemy against Christ and attributing salvation to works, what man does, in this case you said accepting. So you admit, Christ's Death in and of itself saved no one ! Blasphemy !
The cross of Christ can only save if it is accepted by faith
Thats Blasphemy against Christ and attributing salvation to works, what man does, in this case you said accepting. So you admit, Christ's Death in and of itself saved no one ! Blasphemy !
If you call it blasphemy then it is you that believes it.dhk
Thats Blasphemy against Christ and attributing salvation to works, what man does, in this case you said accepting. So you admit, Christ's Death in and of itself saved no one ! Blasphemy !
The Bible says over and over again that salvation is by faith and faith alone.
As the reformers put it: sola fide.
But you reject that. You call faith a work. In doing so you are the one that has a works-based salvation. Now who believes the heresy?
dhk
Thats Blasphemy against Christ and attributing salvation to works, what man does, in this case you said accepting. So you admit, Christ's Death in and of itself saved no one ! Blasphemy !
So when did you realise that you were a sinner, that you were a failure to be perfect as God requires us to be IF trying to get saved by the Law, and asked Jesus to be your Saviour, trusting Him alone as way to get saved by God?