Limited Sovereignty?

[quantumfaith]

I heard this question posed to Ravi Zacharias recently on one of his radio programs.

Does God grant "limted sovereignty" to his creatures or is that a contradiction?

Would love to have thoughts about this issue, if possible without degenerating into the classic C vs. A debate. Please feel free to "argue" your thoughts biblically, philosophically and rationally.

Thanks, hope to enjoy reading your input.

 

[MB]

I heard this question posed to Ravi Zacharias recently on one of his radio programs.

Does God grant "limted sovereignty" to his creatures or is that a contradiction?

Would love to have thoughts about this issue, if possible without degenerating into the classic C vs. A debate. Please feel free to "argue" your thoughts biblically, philosophically and rationally.

Thanks, hope to enjoy reading your input.

Man has dominion;

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Dominion is soveregin rule.
MB

 

[jbh28]

I heard this question posed to Ravi Zacharias recently on one of his radio programs.

Does God grant "limted sovereignty" to his creatures or is that a contradiction?

Would love to have thoughts about this issue, if possible without degenerating into the classic C vs. A debate. Please feel free to "argue" your thoughts biblically, philosophically and rationally.

Thanks, hope to enjoy reading your input.

Sovereign is absolute authority. Either you are sovereign or you are not. ANY thing we are able to do is because our sovereign God allows us to do it. God doesn't rely on anything from us.

As MB pointed out, man can have dominion over something, but that comes from God.

 

[quantumfaith]

Sovereign is absolute authority. Either you are sovereign or you are not. ANY thing we are able to do is because our sovereign God allows us to do it. God doesn't rely on anything from us.

I think that was the point of the question, does (can) God "grant" his creatures some degree of "limited sovereignty"?

 

[pinoybaptist]

I think that was the point of the question, does (can) God "grant" his creatures some degree of "limited sovereignty"?

Ravi Zacharias is a preacher I like listening to.
I would be very interested how he answered the question, if you remember ?

 

[Cypress]

It doesn't seem to be a contradiction at all. The issue would seem to be what is granted to men and what is reserved by God. Things granted by God could be as follows. A simple case might be parents over small children. More complex could be leaders of people i.e. kings, etc. Thing reserved could be eternal judgement, lifespan, etc. There is no reason God cannot relinquish sovereignty if He so desires. If He can't, He really is not sovereign to begin with.

 

[quantumfaith]

Ravi Zacharias is a preacher I like listening to.
I would be very interested how he answered the question, if you remember ?

http://www.supload.com/listen?s=3edxGK

 

[jbh28]

It doesn't seem to be a contradiction at all. The issue would seem to be what is granted to men and what is reserved by God. Things granted by God could be as follows. A simple case might be parents over small children. More complex could be leaders of people i.e. kings, etc. Thing reserved could be eternal judgement, lifespan, etc. There is no reason God cannot relinquish sovereignty if He so desires. If He can't, He really is not sovereign to begin with.

And if he does relinquish sovereignty, He isn't fully sovereign anymore, as He has given up some sovereignty.

I think that was the point of the question, does (can) God "grant" his creatures some degree of "limited sovereignty"?

No, God can grant his creatures some degree of dominion or authority, but not sovereignty. Limited sovereignty is a oxymoron.

 

[quantumfaith]

And if he does relinquish sovereignty, He isn't fully sovereign anymore, as He has given up some sovereignty.


No, God can grant his creatures some degree of dominion or authority, but not sovereignty. Limited sovereignty is a oxymoron.

I was "doing my best" to quote the question as it was presented to Dr. Zacharias, personally for me the terminology of "dominion or authority" can be interpreted as a certain degree of "sovereignty".

 

[jbh28]

I was "doing my best" to quote the question as it was presented to Dr. Zacharias, personally for me the terminology of "dominion or authority" can be interpreted as a certain degree of "sovereignty".

Sovereignty just isn't the right word there.(Saying God can allow people to have choices is correct.) There are no degrees of sovereignty. People do have powers and authority here, but God is still in control. He is still supreme even when allowing others to make choices. It is just that the term sovereignty can't be "limited." Almost like perfect, you are either perfect or you are not perfect. I think it is important to use terms right because some people can use that to teach something bad. To say that people can have choices isn't an attack on God sovereignty. He can allow people to make choices.

 

[Cypress]

And if he does relinquish sovereignty, He isn't fully sovereign anymore, as He has given up some sovereignty.

That would be correct and it would also be according to His desire. Is there some reason that God is unable to do this if He so desired? Does it stem from a definition of God that is incompatible with God self limiting?

 

[quantumfaith]

That would be correct and it would also be according to His desire. Is there some reason that God is unable to do this if He so desired? Does it stem from a definition of God that is incompatible with God self limiting?

"A limited sovereignty given by a totally sovereign being are not mutually exclusive terms". (R Zacharias)

 

[Cypress]

"A limited sovereignty given by a totally sovereign being are not mutually exclusive terms". (R Zacharias)

Works for me!

 

[quantumfaith]

Works for me!

:thumbsup:

 

[Cypress]

It would have been a more accurate representation of my opinion if I said that God is no less sovereign if He self-limits since it is an excercise of His sovereignty.

 

[quantumfaith]

It would have been a more accurate representation of my opinion if I said that God is no less sovereign if He self-limits since it is an excercise of His sovereignty.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[jbh28]

It would have been a more accurate representation of my opinion if I said that God is no less sovereign if He self-limits since it is an excercise of His sovereignty.

I would agree with that.

 

[HankD]

NKJV 1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

Yes, the koine text includes the definite article.

Is God still sovereign even though the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one?

Hint: It's a rhetorical question (see Revelation 20:10).

HankD​

 

[quantumfaith]

NKJV 1 John 5:19 We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one.

Yes, the koine text includes the definite article.

Is God still sovereign even though the whole world lies under the sway of the wicked one?

Hint: It's a rhetorical question (see Revelation 20:10).

HankD​

Could you please clarify the implications of Rev 20:10, my limited and finite thought processes are not following you.

As per the thread, Dr. Z, in his response to the question was qualifying that mankind is granted "limited sovereignty" (free will). A point with which I most assuredly agree, in my reading of scripture I feel it is abundantly clear that "limited sovereignty" was part of God's design for creation from the beginning. This "design" in no way limits, interferes with or hinders the ultimate total sovereignty of God, He is the one who has established all the parameters within which all of creation must function. (much like boundary value problems in differential equations.)

 

[HankD]

Could you please clarify the implications of Rev 20:10, my limited and finite thought processes are not following you.

As per the thread, Dr. Z, in his response to the question was qualifying that mankind is granted "limited sovereignty" (free will). A point with which I most assuredly agree, in my reading of scripture I feel it is abundantly clear that "limited sovereignty" was part of God's design for creation from the beginning. This "design" in no way limits, interferes with or hinders the ultimate total sovereignty of God, He is the one who has established all the parameters within which all of creation must function. (much like boundary value problems in differential equations.)

That was my point (underline ultimate).

Some might say that "limited sovereignty" is actually a "delegated authority".

Its probably just semantics, but I woulld prefer "delegated authority" to "limited sovereignty".

...the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away...

Though the whole world is presently under the authority of the wicked one it is a delegated or allowed authority which clearly shall be remitted.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
​

HankD