Limted Attonement

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
There are more than a million abortions in the U.S. alone each year...

Still rationalizing the numbers instead of dealing with Scripture, I see.

[ October 10, 2002, 09:18 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Still rationalizing the numbers instead of dealing with Scripture, I see.

I'm glad my interpretation of Scripture doesn't see infants being cast into hell as non-Calvinism apparently easily allows for and has no qualms about.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
I'm glad my interpretation of Scripture doesn't see infants being cast into hell...

Still avoiding the many/few Scripture. No matter how you try to distract from the issue, it's clear you cannot handle it.

(And whoever thinks that infants go to hell, please stand up)

[ October 10, 2002, 09:19 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
[QB(And whoever thinks that infants go to hell, please stand up)[/QB]

Since the final destinations are either heaven or hell, you agree with me that infants go to heaven.

Thanks, Scott. Glad to see we agree.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Still avoiding the many/few Scripture. No matter how you try to distract from the issue, it's clear you cannot handle it.

Matthew 7:13-14: from my readings in postmillennialism(not original with me

) -

1. The narrowness of the gate refers to the exclusivity of Christ Jesus.

2. Jesus is speaking ethically in that passage, not prophetically. We are to be motivated to place our faith in Him as the Messiah.

3. Jesus is dealing with the state of affairs existing then - very few Jews believed in Him at that time. That passage does not deal with the rest of human history.

4. There is nothing in that passage that says that the state of affairs at that time were permanent. The passage is descriptive, not prescriptive.

5. The context deals with the rejection at that time of Christ by all but a small number of Jews.

Now, Scott, I am 99.999999999% sure you won't agree with what I repeated above from my studies, but you can't say I haven't dealt with the passage you keep bringing up.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
[qb]Still avoiding the many/few Scripture. No matter how you try to distract from the issue, it's clear you cannot handle it.

Matthew 7:13-14: from my readings in postmillennialism(not original with me

) -</font>[/QUOTE]Now we're getting somewhere. Where has this been? Instead of going around and around trying to distract from the text, we're getting somewhere.

1. The narrowness of the gate refers to the exclusivity of Christ Jesus.

Agreed.

2. Jesus is speaking ethically in that passage, not prophetically. We are to be motivated to place our faith in Him as the Messiah.

Within the context of the Sermon on the Mount, especially the text immediately before and after, how do you justify that conclusion?

3. Jesus is dealing with the state of affairs existing then - very few Jews believed in Him at that time. That passage does not deal with the rest of human history.

Again, where in the context of the passage do you get that? The next couple verses say, "21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" This seems to me to be linked to the passage on many/few, and it is told in an eschatological sense.

4. There is nothing in that passage that says that the state of affairs at that time were permanent. The passage is descriptive, not prescriptive.

Evidence? Especially considering the context?

5. The context deals with the rejection at that time of Christ by all but a small number of Jews.

Really? Where? I don't see this anywhere in the Sermon on the Mount.

Now, Scott, I am 99.999999999% sure you won't agree with what I repeated above from my studies, but you can't say I haven't dealt with the passage you keep bringing up.

Well, Ken, you tried, but the evidence does not yet support your theory.

 

[BobRyan]

Ken speaking of Matt 7 "Few" contrast to "MANY"

2. Jesus is speaking ethically in that passage, not prophetically. We are to be motivated to place our faith in Him as the Messiah.

That is pure assumption - not exegesis.

Lets look at the text and "see" if Christ avoids the prophetic - predictive future context.

Matt 7
21 "" Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "" Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 ""And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Many "MANY - WILL say to me on THAT day... and I WILL say to them DEPART..."

The future prophetic view of Judgment is explicitly stated. To "assume" that this is Not the context of Christ's words in Matt 7 is to ignore the text itself because it does not fit one's bias.

It is again - the "MANY" still in view in that future prophetic statement of Christ.

Ken
3. Jesus is dealing with the state of affairs existing then - very few Jews believed in Him at that time. That passage does not deal with the rest of human history.

As noted above - Christ does not limit the term to "MANY HERE today" - it is an unqualified "MANY" and the future prophetic context is explicitly drawn into the context by Christ Himself -- "ON THAT DAY" -- MANY.

And the context of Matt 7 is not "MANY who have not figure out that I am the Messiah" - but rather the MANY who SAY the RIGHT words "Lord Lord" but fail to "Do the Will of My Father".

Speaking the RIGHT words but having actions that do not match those words - is STILL the problem of the church today.

All hopes to limit the scope of Matt 7 so that it is not applicable to us today - fail.

Ken
5. The context deals with the rejection at that time of Christ by all but a small number of Jews.

Nothing of the kind is mentioned in the chapter. Nor in chapters 5-7.

These chapters are specific in that they do not require the audience to know that the speaker is the Messiah OR that He is to die an atoning sacrifice for mankind.

In fact we are told in Matt 16 that "FRom that Time on" he BEGAN to show them that He must die. Long after events in Matt 7.

In christ,

Bob

[ October 12, 2002, 10:25 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

[Ray Berrian]

Calvinists in their passion to protect the concept of ‘salvation by grace alone,' minus faith have taken their alleged truth too far off course. Yes, salvation is by grace alone as is stated in Ephesians 2:8. Calvinists insist that belief or trusting in Christ is a outright ‘work' and therefore in contradiction with Ephesians 2:9.

Here is their fallacy. Jesus Himself said that ‘believing' in the Father about Him sending Jesus to die for our sins is absolutely not a human ‘work,' and, therefore, in no way interferes with God ministering grace in the life of a sinner.

The proof that believing in Christ as Savior is not a human ‘work' is found in John 6:29 where our Lord Himself continues to say to future generations, ‘This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.' By believing that the Father sent the Son of God to be our Savior is all important to God. The work of God in His ministering to sinners requires our belief in Jesus and His saving, spiritual benefits. This clearly allows ‘faith' found in Ephesians 2:8 to be instrumental to a persons final salvation.

Some may call this semi-Pelagianism, but this concept is mega-worlds closer than autocratic predestination allegedly ministered by our God Who's nature is unimpeachable justice. Our belief in Christ is co-mingled with the work and ministry of God and He places the seal of His own words on this orthodox and clear fact. [John 6:29]